[Laura] Welcome to the Saturn's Favorite Music Podcast, the podcast where we go through each of the songs that's mentioned in the book Saturn's Favorite Music and have a fun discussion about them. If you listened to the end of the last episode and the tag, you will know that this episode was delayed because your host had laryngitis. So I apologize in advance. This one's going to be a little bit more hushed tones than usual, but I hope that it's fun. Today is friend of the pod, Nick Bean is back. Hello. Welcome. [Nick] Thank you. It's good to be back already. [Laura] Yeah, it's great. I invited you special for this particular one instead of waiting because it's the only one that has some musical theater in it. Thank God. And it's kind of a weird collection of songs in that there are a couple of them that come up because they're the stuff that people are playing on the radio. And then there are a couple that come up because the main character of Clara is going to the video store trying to find something to watch. And she decides she likes like countercultural stuff. And she's going to bring home Cabaret as the like 1930s counterculture and Alice's Restaurant, the movie for 60s counterculture. And so those kind of songs are not your normal contemporary fare, but we got them today. Yeah, I'm excited. I think we'll start with the kind of normie songs and then work our way into the work our way up to Cabaret. That sounds good. That sounds good. And with a bang or jazz hands. The first two songs are Rick Astley, Never Gonna Give You Up. Yeah. [Nick] Never Gonna Give You Up. [Laura] Never Gonna Give You Up from 1987, number one song with a very long shelf life. [Nick] Yeah, it renews. [Laura] I purposely put it in because I felt like if I was doing a book that was set in sort of early 90s, I had to rickroll the readers. [Nick] You know, my age will be showing a little bit here, but I really didn't learn about rickrolling until recently, even though I know it started like 2007. And it's funny because I learned about it maybe two years ago. You know, 20 years after it was popular. I don't know, but it's kind of funny that when it popped up, that's one of the first things I thought of. Do you need to explain what rickrolling is? [Laura] Yeah, probably. I mean, by now, it's probably like an old thing. So yeah, rickrolling is so people would give a link in the sort of old internet and they'd say, hey, I read this great story. Click on this link and you'd click on it and it would take you to the video of Rick Astley doing Never Gonna Give You Up. [Nick] Yeah, and that's pretty funny. I mean, you know, it's a practical joke, whatever. But I thought it was pretty funny. No one ever rickrolled me, unfortunately, during the time it was popular. [Laura] So you didn't know about it. [Nick] I never got rickrolled, so I missed out on that. But I think, you know, 87, I was 17 years old and I remember being shocked when I saw the man behind the voice. Right. That's the thing that I think is part of the longevity of that song is there's so many unique things to it that brought it together. I mean, yeah, it's a good song and it's got a great beat, a pop song. If I'm not mistaken, it's been on several lists of like top 100s, top 500s. You know, it's of pop songs ever. Best pop songs ever. Things like that. And I feel like it's deserved because, you know, it's and also I guess it was produced by someone that was known for producing a lot of hits, but that's really old. [Laura] Yeah, Stock Aiken Waterman. They were kind of like a hit factory, especially in England. But yeah, they did like Kylie Minogue. Yeah, Kylie Minogue was my girl. [Nick] So, yes. Okay, that's right. I knew that. Yeah. So I think, you know, honestly, when I think of that song, I think about the factors that play into it. It was a great beat. It was from those hitmakers. Then you had this man with this sultry, sexy lower voice and he looks like a teenager, you know, like basically. [Laura] Yeah, well, that was funny because it's like this, you know, cool voice and you're, you know, it's this baritone kind of voice. And then you see the video and he looks like he's 12 years old. He looks like Howdy Doody. And he's just he's got a goofy way of dancing. He's got one dance move. He's really stiff. And there's something so endearing about his goofiness. [Nick] And confusing. You know, it's a confusing, like it's such a weird juxtaposition of who he is versus how he sounds, what he sounds like, you know, how he presents himself. Because even though he's goofy, I think his voice still makes it like charismatic, goofy, you know what I mean? Like, like, it's definitely charming. And, you know, when you pick apart the lyrics, it's another one of those songs we kind of talked about maybe lyrics that wouldn't fly today, right? And then it's not too bad. But it's kind of like, I think one of the first lines is, I'm offering you my love that you can't get like you won't get from any other man. And I just think it's a weird thing to say to someone, right? You're no stranger to love. I have to look at it, but pretty surely one of the first things, like, I'm offering my love, which you won't get, like, it's your last chance, sweetie. It's what it kind of sounds like when you really pick it apart, you know? And it's not, I know it's meant to be romantic. And I think it's back then it was just that whole macho, you know, like, my love is the best. You know, that's what he's really saying. But it makes it sound like no man's on offer. You know, like, so you also take me. [Laura] Yeah. I mean, never going to give you up is great if you're like, you know, you've said your vows and you're committed to each other. Right. But if it's somebody that you just met. [Nick] Yeah. I mean, you know, even some of those lyrics, too, it's still, you know, I'm never going to, I mean, he still is saying, you know, wonderful, positive things that anyone would want to hear. You know, I'm not going to cheat on you. I'm not going to lie to you. But when they say it too often, he repeats it a lot. You start to go, I think he's just saying this. Don't protest too much. Right. But yeah, you know, I know I'm a little older than you, if I believe, but it was another song that even though it wasn't one of, like, I liked it, it wasn't one of my go-to jams, but I did like it. It was a song of, you know, some songs come on the radio, you turn, and even that song was overplayed for its time back in the day. I never turned it off. It was still a good song. But I'm surprised when I was kind of re-acquainting myself. I didn't, I really didn't know a lot of the words other than chorus. [Laura] And I was kind of surprised because I was like, yeah, no, I sort of know the first, like the opening line and the chorus and the rest of the words, you know, because it's, you're more bopping along to it. [Nick] Yeah, because, and once you get it, because it's such a, because the chorus is so repetitive, he repeats it so often and it is, you know, never going, I mean, it's catchy. And so I think, like, I just probably just listened to the rest, like, tapping along. Now they're going to give you, just start singing that part. You know, that's the part I know. Come on, everybody. I think it was that kind of song. You go, if you went to a karaoke place or a bar and that came on, everyone starts singing that part, you know? [Laura] Well, this was, like I said, it was the Stock Aiken Waterman hit factory. He said later that he just, we talked in the last episode that we did together about, like, how much control artists have over their work. And that it was basically like, you know, they threw him on the conveyor belt and, you know, it came out with this music and that, like, he just, some of the stuff, probably not this one, but some of the stuff he just found kind of embarrassing, you know, he wouldn't have chosen it. And he did do an album where he did his own stuff later on, but didn't have as many hits. But he did have a nice song called Cry For Help on it. I don't know if you've heard that. [Nick] To be honest with you, the only Rick Astley song I know is Never Gonna Give You Up. And I've always known, I thought he was more of a one hit wonder. And then once again, reacquainting myself, I always just kind of like to look a little bit things up and kind of read a little history here and there. And yeah, he did have other hits, it said, and I was like, well, I don't know. [Laura] Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you were in AC, Adult Contemporary Radio, there were a lot of Rick Astley songs. [Nick] Yeah, and I definitely wasn't back then. [Laura] But I think that they could have marketed him like as a kind of R&B soul guy, even, you know, with this voice. [Nick] I think they should have. I think they missed an opportunity there. [Laura] Like different cover, you know, on the albums, not have him doing his little dance in the video. [Nick] Maybe pull up a dance in any of you. I will say this, for some reason, I was under the impression that that song was a remake. Back at the time, when it first came out, I was under the impression that it had been like maybe a 1960s or 1970s hit and that he had redone it because it happened a lot in the 80s. There are a lot of songs in the 80s that like I can't there's a couple Supreme songs that were redone. [Laura] Yeah, Phil Collins was doing like Can't Hurry Love. [Nick] Yeah, right. I mean, yes, there's all these songs that Supremes stuff. And then Tears for Fears did a song, if I'm not mistaken, that was a remake, not shout, but I mean, you know, and and so I thought the 80s was really big on covers. [Laura] Kylie Minogue did a lot of covers. [Nick] Yeah, absolutely. [Laura] She built her career off that. [Nick] And I will defend her, though, and say, though, she has done her own stuff since. She is my absolute favorite artist of all time. You bringing her up was a mistake. We're not here to talk about her, Nick. But yeah, so. [Laura] Oh, God, Presley Times. [Nick] She is the Madonna of the world. No, but so yeah, it's so that's the thing. Locomotion. I know there was a remake when I first heard it. I think it was 12 when it came out. But I'm saying maybe a little over 87. But still, it was a huge hit for her in the States. But it was a remake and I had no clue. So I think I just got used to in the 80s, there being such like such a large amount of cover songs. It was really good. Lots of that was probably just a cover. Yeah, I mean, it's not a cover song. Or where have I heard this before? Turns out, no, it was original to him and the hitmakers. But I feel like it's unfortunate because he did not. That song was such a hit. He didn't parlay it into a huge career. I mean, he has a successful career. Don't get me wrong. But I feel like that song was a hit making career that had maybe had more control or maybe like you said, maybe they veered him towards R&B a little more. He could have probably had like, especially back then, you know. [Laura] Well, he did end up sort of dropping out of music for a while. He kind of burnt out on it. He was, I don't know, doing something else when this Rick Rolling thing started. And at first he was asking, like, are they making fun of me? You know, should I be embarrassed? You know, and people said, no, no, you know, lean into it. And so he ended up recording his first new album in years and releasing it on his 50th birthday. And so it's revived his his career, you know? [Nick] Yeah, that's right. [Laura] Yeah, I do. I did hear about a new album. I guess Rick Rolling was good for him. I think he's I don't know. There's something just very the story is great. And there's something that is very endearing about him. [Nick] You know, he comes across as just like somebody you want to root for. And I think, too, what it does stand because of the fact that he's back in I realize you had him in the book, but he's still back in the forefront. He just did an album again. He recorded or he's doing more albums again. It goes to show that you never kind of know, you know, with the old age, everything old is new again. You know, I think that's from a musical or a musical movie, all that jazz. Actually, they sing that song. They sing a song with that in there. But but it's the truth. I feel like that's a good attestment or a good testament to the idea that if something's just good, it's going to repeat, you know, if it's if it's timeless, it's going to repeat in some form, some way from Rick Rowland to just covers to re-releases, you know. [Laura] Yeah, it's interesting if you look back, because I'm doing this, I've looked back at the charts a lot, you know, and you find if you're looking at the charts in the 70s, say there'll be these hits from the 50s that get re-released and come back. And that's always been a thing. But I think we're kind of in the golden age for that with, you know, somebody does a viral video and they've got a, you know, a song that they found from the 60s or something. You know, suddenly people say, oh, that's cool. What's that song? So Rick Estley, classic. What kind of a grade would you give it? [Nick] I have to go with an A just because it keeps coming back up. Like, for me personally, I'd probably like even closer to an A minus. But I feel like that's just because it didn't hit me in all the right spots for every people at the time. But listening to it again, it did remind me of like, my toe starts tapping. You know what I mean? It's just a classic song. You can get it. I'd say an A. That's an A for me. [Laura] Yeah, I like it more now. Like at the time, it was just sort of, you know, another pop song. And but it does carry that history and the fact, you know, that sort of endurance with something fun. And so I enjoy that. I probably, I'm probably going to go with a B. [Nick] Maybe I'm too generous. [Laura] It's not my not my favorite, but I like it. [Nick] I like it. It's to the test of time. That's why I went with a little A, because I think he is kind of a part of music history. You know what I mean? [Laura] Yeah. So let's move on to the other song that was played on the radio, which is Bruce Springsteen's Human Touch. This was from March 1992. And we are still in June, believe it or not, June 1992 in the book. It starts in June 1992, and we're up to episode nine of the podcast. And we're still in June of 1992, because I think the book is very front loaded with like radio scenes, songs on the air. I bring all that up just to say that this was a fairly recent song at the time of this reference. It wasn't brand new, but it was fairly new. And it's kind of a different direction for Bruce Springsteen. He had just remarried after divorce. He moved to California. And this was, I think, the first without the E Street Band. Okay. And it's one of his adult contemporary hits. So what was your reaction to Human Touch? [Nick] I remember it when it came out. And I'll be honest with you, I was not ever a big fan of Bruce Springsteen with or without E Street Band. I like rock, and I like more classic, like 70s, 80s, Kiss, ACDC. And he was never to me like that hardcore rock. You know what I mean? And so, but that song, that's another song I realized I don't know the lyrics as well, because it was a song I'd let play in the background, but I wasn't like, oh, that's my jam, or I got to turn that up. And I never loved his voice. He's got such that gravelly voice. This has never been my thing. I think that's because being a singer, being taught how to sing certain ways, and, you know, trying to be professional and try to sing opera and try to sing some, especially back, I have to be honest, back then, I had a little more pretentiousness about me, right? Because I was in school, I was studying, I was learning. And so I was a little more judgy about some things like that. So I think that was partly why I didn't really lean towards him or lean into his music. However, the first thing I want to point out, ultimately, is lyrically, that song is depressing. It is so depressing. And I never caught that. I thought it was more of a, yeah, plead for love me, like, I need a human touch. I need, you know, to be, you know, part of something right now with some other person. But that part, to me, isn't depressing. That part is more of a, wow, he's asking for what he needs. Great. But then you watch the lyrics before you get there. And he's all like, let's face it, life sucks, men suck, women suck. He's just like, you know, I was like, don't hand me a gun while I listen to this song. It kind of surprised me because I don't think I ever knew that. [Laura] I guess I'm sort of at an age where the idea that, like, we're all kind of hurting and broken has its own uplift as well. You know, that instead of like trying to fight to be a victor all the time, you know, just recognizing, like, you know, I think he says, I know you're hurt. Show me somebody who ain't or something like that. And so it's a world without pity. [Nick] Yeah, it's very... You said about prayer and pity. I remember the prayer, there's prayer and then pity right afterwards. Once again, I think what I kind of, I guess my takeaway from that is what you said at the very beginning, a big departure from what he did before. You know, his songs, even though his songs had heart to them, and this song has heart to it, it has a message. You know what I mean? It's a very clear message, and I think he was very good at clear messages. You know, you knew what his songs were about, even when he was more rock and roll-ish as opposed to more adult contemporary. And so I can respect that and like that. And I do think it's a pretty song. I do think it's... But I also feel like it's a very 90s song. That song feels more dated to me than other 90s songs. You know what I mean? And I like slow jams as well. But I feel like that one, even though it clearly is him, and I think that's great if you can tell it's him. I feel like it's him keeping up in a way at the time with the 90s feel that was going on. [Laura] Yeah, it's an odd song for... I'm assuming he wrote it sort of between the divorce and before the remarriage, because it's a weird song to come out after you've like are newly remarried, you know, it's like, oh, the world is dark and we're all lonely. You know, it's not what you expect. [Nick] And also because he had a lot of his stuff. And even though, once again, like you put it, that at our age now, we can appreciate more and we appreciate like someone saying, this is all I need in life right now. Just now I just need someone to be human with me, which can be uplifting. But it was very, very different from his messages, born in the U.S. You know what I mean? [Laura] And I think, you know, I'm not sure because I'm not really a Bruce Springsteen fan either. I don't think this is like a favorite of the Bruce Springsteen fans because I think that they're more into his kind of socially conscious, like working man's hero kind of stuff. [Nick] And this was a big risk for him. [Laura] And this is inward looking. [Nick] It was a big risk for him to take. I don't know how well it paid off because I don't know. I know he's had consecutive... I know he's done a ton of albums. I think he's still recording today, if I'm not mistaken, or, you know, in the past couple years, but I'm not sure how successful they've been comparatively. [Laura] Yeah. I mean, just from like pure chart numbers, it got to number 16 at the time on Billboard. So that's pretty... It did pretty well. I don't know how that compares to, say, Born in the USA. Yeah. I wrote down a lyric from the song, which was, in the end, what you don't surrender while the world just strips away. That is a dark thought. [Nick] It is a dark thought. And also, it's once again, it's no longer the 90s. We live in a different time. It's just kind of like, I feel like you're just trying to convince someone. And I know he's not... I mean, human touch can play a lot of things. So I know it's not overtly sexual. It's not... He's not trying to get laid, in my opinion, you know, in the context of the song. And yet the undertones are a little bit that because that's what kind of the human touch and being intimate, touching one another, that's an intimacy, however you look at it. And I feel like he's just, you know, I feel like he's just chipping away at whoever he's talking to. [Laura] Human touch. I mean, just a little human touch is not... It's not like a long connection like you would have, presumably, with the second wife. If you're just saying, I just want a little human touch, that's temporary. Very much so. [Nick] You know, this moment. I need something to ease the pain and I don't need it to be permanent. Yeah. You know, I need somebody to make me forget what's going on in this world, all the horrible things and like wink, wink, nudge, nudge. Don't you think these are some horrible things? Why don't you come and let's make ourselves feel good. So I feel the implication of something a little more inappropriate, let's say, a little bit more personal. I don't know how to say this. It's not overtly sexual in the least to me, but it definitely has strong sexual undertones. [Laura] Yeah, I think that that's sort of the first thought to it, even though he's not spelling that out. You know, it's not like... There are songs like that, like, let's just spend the night together and make the world go away, you know, but this is more implied. [Nick] And but I mean, I do think as far as the song itself, meaning the music, the melody, even though I'm not a huge fan of his, I think it's I think it's catchy. I think it's a vibe when you're in the mood for the vibe it's given. You know, it's definitely a strong vibe. It's just that's not something that I tend to go to because to me, songs like that, I find not depressing, but more sad. You know, when someone's like, it's one. I don't mind the songs you broke up with someone and you're lamenting that that's over. And I don't like I love the songs you're talking about. You love someone and all that stuff. That's you know, those are both like songs I can identify with. But I've never at least openly admitted to myself that I was so lonely that I'm making a connection to just fight that loneliness. You know what I'm saying? [Laura] Yeah. I mean, it's kind of a world weary song. You know, he's it's not just I'm lonely or I'm sad. It's like I'm exhausted. I'm disappointed in the world. [Nick] I'm exhausted by now. And now that I'm 55, I hear that song and I do not feel that way. And I would think by 55, I would. So I mean, if I felt a certain way. So I do feel like once again, it's a song that has purpose. It's a song that he wrote with the meaning and it comes clear. And that's what makes him a great artist overall. I'm assuming even once again, not missing my favorite, but I can recognize this skill, the talent, you know what I mean? So yeah, I just but it was, which is ironic, too, because it was a far cry from what he usually did. So you think, oh, he can't win with Nick. Nick doesn't like either. But you know what I mean? It's like, you think I would like the 90s stuff a little better. But I really didn't. I just I think I think it boils down to like his voice. It just really doesn't. You know, it's like grating chalk. [Laura] Well, that was kind of when we talked about Rod Stewart before. I have that kind of, you know, same thing with absolutely right. [Nick] It's a it's a unique voice, but I've never been one into the gravelly, gritty stuff. It's just not been, you know. And also, I think what they're doing to their vocal cords. Like, and didn't he have vocal cord problems eventually? I'm pretty sure. I don't know. I don't. I once again, I could be, you know, I'm Nick being just all facts that don't exist. So I'm not sure. But I could be thinking of another artist. I don't know what's holding me to task here. But I'm saying, you know, so listeners, just definitely I don't know for sure. But I feel like at some point he was one of the rock stars that had to take a break or go like leave a tour because he had nodes or something. And you get nodes from not supporting, you know, vocal. And there's a little music lesson as well. [Laura] Free information on the podcast. [Nick] Kids out there. [Laura] Well, I think, you know, when it comes to like songs to bolster you up and it may be a personality thing or maybe a mood thing. But I find that sometimes I want, you know, when I'm feeling really down, something that's kind of encouraging. And sometimes I want something that kind of says, I get where you are. Yeah. You know, like what is that December song? Like, why can't something go right where you're kind of wallowing in self-pity, you know, or Morrissey with them. Morrissey, never mind anything by Morrissey. But sometimes, like, you just kind of want to feel like somebody's down there in the hole with you. And sometimes you want a song to kind of lift you out of the hole. [Nick] Do you remember All Cried Out by Lisa Lisa? And so that song was actually. Yeah. Yeah. Love that song. Great lyric song. And it was redone late, I want to say mid to late 90s by a girl group. I can't remember the name of the group. I liked them at the time. But and they added men to the song. Like they added men to do the second verse or whatever. I can't think of their name right now. But I remember to me, it took a song that was already amazing. And then it got even cooler because it gave both perspectives a little bit to, you know, the song and brought a new meaning to it. And another one that I like. Are you familiar with Gordon Lightfoot at all? Rock of the Edmonds. Yeah. Emma Fitzgerald's an amazing song. And it's sad, but it's a historical song. You know what I mean? And then he also had If You Could Read My Mind, which is just so sad. But I'm like, because this is, you know, it's about a love that's dying, right? A love that's already dead. And he's lamenting it. But that affected me in a way. And he's got a nicer voice to me. But I'm saying, and so, yeah, I agree with you. It affects you in whatever way you're feeling. And sometimes maybe you're not feeling it until you hear that song. Right. But like I said, with his Human Touch song, I think for me, there was just a level of genericness to it from the 90s drivel stuff that I still love my 90s music. I was in my 20s in the 90s. So but that just seemed to me like a lot of other songs I've heard around that time. [Laura] There's a certain. Yeah, I've started, especially, you know, listening to so many of these 90s songs now, there's a certain arrangement, especially like in the keyboards that just gives you a kind of 90s sound, which I mean, every era has its. [Nick] Yes, go to sound. [Laura] And yeah, now my pet peeves now are the, you know, the autotune where it does that thing that makes the voice like jump up and down. Like it was cool. It's cool. It was cool when it was novel. But when everybody's doing it, it's a cliche. [Nick] Absolutely. [Laura] It's not too interesting. And the other one is that kind of whisper singing. That's usually a female singer. And you got the music singing really close to the mic like this. [Nick] Right. No, I agree. Yeah. I mean, there's all these little, like you said, techniques that when first done or first heard can be groundbreaking. And then when people also start latching onto it, you know, one of the things I think is really, really funny is because I do like Britney Spears, and I know I'm a broken record about people I like, but people always say Britney Spears can't sing. And that's not true. Britney Spears is just a lazy singer. So like, because she doesn't, you know, she doesn't need to try. I mean, I felt like that's my view on it. Girl was on Broadway in her teens, you know, or off Broadway. She was in a musical and she could sing. So it's this that she's gotten to the point where she focuses on dancing. You don't have to. You got, you got the machine. And she's like, I'm good. Yeah, I've got, you know, and she does a lot of that stuff, right? Let's the stuff kind of work her or did. I mean, I shouldn't do much anymore. I don't believe, but that's the thing. You know, but I always crack me up. It's like, no, no, she's talented. She can sing. She just doesn't have to. You know, it's like, she just can turn it out that way. And you guys keep buying her songs, you know? So who cares? [Laura] Well, that's how writing is kind of like that now too, where it's like, you know, you can be very lazy and say, like, here's my idea and plug it into the AI, you know? But then it comes out the same thing with the voice, you know, the voice pitch correction. It comes out like sounding the same as everybody else. [Nick] And it's one of those things that when you're on the radio and you're listening to music casually, you probably can't catch it half the time because it's just what you're used to hearing. But when you really dissect music, I feel like, oh, oh, oh, you know what I mean? Like you kind of get it. Oh, yeah, this is not their natural voice or, oh, this is overproduced or, you know, things like that. So and I love my overproduced songs. There's some really great ones. But a lot of times the overproduced songs all start sounding the same, you know? [Laura] Yeah. I mean, like when Cher did Believe, right? It was like, what is that? Like you hadn't heard it before. Now everybody sounds like Cher. [Nick] Well, it's funny too when I hear it in rap music. And I was like, it's just like, I mean, it still can be cool done right and not overdone. It's like anything. We talked about Mariah Carey last time and her runs, you know? And my thing is, is you add a run here and there. Great. You add it to every song. Girl, now you're just being like ridiculously overconfident. We know what you can do. You know what I mean? Like it doesn't fit. It doesn't, you know, because a lot of times a little, a little Tabasco is good. [Laura] A whole bottle on your meal kills the meal right on. So I'm going to, I'm going to go with kind of a B on Human Touch. I think it's, I didn't remember it. A lot of the songs that I put in was because I had references or I had like Casey's countdown adult contemporary discs, and I was like, oh, I forgot that song. You know, so that's how a lot of the references got into the book was like, oh, I, I forgot that song. [Nick] Well, I recognize the song. I knew, I mean, once again, I could sing, I couldn't tell you the words of the course other than human touch kind of thing. But, but I would give this song at most for me, a C plus just because I feel like, even though it may have been a defining moment for him changing his style, I still think he kind of, you know, beefed off borrowed from what was going on. And a lot of artists do that. I mean, it's not, it's not, but I just feel like there was nothing about, there's nothing about the song to me to this day. That is the way I put it a vibe. [Laura] You're not going to put it on. Yeah, I would. [Nick] I definitely wouldn't put it on purpose. [Laura] Well, let's move on. Let's move on to the weirdo songs of the, of the list. Harlow Guthrie's Alice's Restaurant Massacre from 1967. This is a 20 minute long talking song, talking blues, comedy. I, I have a lot of experience with this song, so I'm interested to get your take. [Nick] Yeah, well, you know, mama always said, if you ain't got nothing nice to say, sit next to me. No. So I'd never heard the song. I'd never heard of Harlow. I understood. I think I got the gist of it. Comedic, bluesy, political, you know what I mean? It definitely had a political vibe to me. I'm not sure if I was getting that. Maybe I didn't get that right, but that's what it felt like to me. That he was, you know, making a political statement on top of it all. I just, and granted, I heard it today as opposed to back then, when maybe it would have meant more politically to me, or maybe I would have appreciated it more. But honestly, I found it, frankly, boring. I didn't find it when I hear the audience laughing, because it was a recording where you can hear them laughing. I was like, is that canned laughter? You know, so I just didn't, I really don't have a lot to say about the song. I always try to find, I think you've already noticed it about me, I do try to find good things and say good things about. And so I think, as an artist, wow, did he take a chance. And it wasn't a decent success, right? It was as big, it was closest to the biggest hit he had? [Laura] Yeah, it's, yeah, I mean, it's hard to talk about it as a hit in terms of Billboard, because it's a 20 minute song. So it wasn't, you know, something that's getting plopped on the, yeah. But it's, it gets played every Thanksgiving. There's stations that play it every Thanksgiving day. [Nick] That's right. [Laura] Yeah, yeah, yeah, it takes place on Thanksgiving Day. And it did. I mean, he was playing in, you know, folk clubs and stuff like that. But this really did launch his career. Yeah, I think that if you were, I mean, it's an anti-war song for the Vietnam War. And I think that if you were, you know, in your 20s, in 1967, and listening to that, there's a lot that would just be, you know, part of the air that he doesn't have to explain, because you would know that, like, everybody's worried about being drafted and getting called up, you know, so it's they have this shared generational experience that they're laughing at. [Nick] And I will say this, you know, part of who I am, he kind of lost me immediately when he started talking about the trash at the bottom of the church. And I didn't even, I didn't, I wasn't even listening to the point where I was looking for, which if I were to go back and listen, maybe I would do a little bit more intently, because looking for the, was he really talking about trash, you know, is trash a euphemism, right? For something else, you know, which is, I believe, ultimately, but I didn't, I just, it came so quickly, I wasn't invested in the song. And it was so nonsensical at the very, it's really quite silly at the beginning, right? Because he's like, Oh, I went and saw Alice, I want to tell you the name of the song, it's called Alice Restaurant, but Alice isn't a restaurant. It's, you know, I just, it's absurdist, you know, a lot of ways to me. And so it just didn't have, I mean, I like folk music, but I don't like, I'm not like, Oh, you know, let's queue up the folk music. So I'm not like, Oh, okay. And so I feel like, from who I do know, I think other people did it better. Peter, Paul and Mary did some folk music with some storytelling with some political, you know what I mean? I love Peter, Paul and Mary, and not just Puff the Magic Dragon. I know all the songs, you know what I mean? And so I know, like, there's other people that did the same thing, and I think got their message across better. Because it was just a, for me, it just hit, in a way, it was more universal, maybe. But once again, I wasn't around during the Vietnam War, you know what I mean? Like, I wasn't, where I couldn't, I think even to this day, I can't quite appreciate what he was doing. [Laura] Yeah, I mean, it's a true story. So it's basically the story of how it takes a while to come together, the whole thing. But it's basically the story of how Arlo Guthrie got out of the draft by being arrested for littering. So yeah, the beginning, he's, basically part of the joke, I think, is that he's rambling and you're like, what is this about? Like, what is he getting to, you know? And it just, it doesn't really all come together until the end, but it's kind of a, like, oh, wow, you know? [Nick] And I do think that's maybe the problem, is when you have a 20-minute song that's not getting to the point, when you finally get to the point, you've actually already checked out, partly, because I know that was my problem. I listened to the song probably four different times. And I really, I couldn't, the first two, I couldn't get all the way to the end. I was just like, and not on purpose. I had it on, I had it on, I was listening intently. I'm like, okay, had the lyrics on, I'm reading the lyrics. And then, you know, five minutes into the first one, next thing I know, I'm doing dishes and stuff. I was like, oh, crap, I go back and listen. So, and that's, I guess, where I feel like it's not a good song, because if it couldn't even keep my interest musically, you know what I mean? Or storytelling, then that's why I feel like, to me, it's, I'm not saying it's not a good song, because clearly it had its, you know, people that loved it. But for me, it just didn't, it just didn't connect the way I needed it to, to enjoy it. [Laura] I think that the appeal of it was the sense of, there were a lot of protest songs at that time. But the sense of kind of laughing at these authorities who had control over your life, you know? [Nick] Yeah. [Laura] You know, instead of being like, we shall overcome, or, you know, here's what's wrong. It was just sort of, look at how ridiculous these authority figures are, really. And I think for the people who were all worried that they were going to get drafted into Vietnam, you know, that was very cathartic. [Nick] Yeah. And I mean, and it is, I mean, the message of getting around the system, right? Like, I mean, that's, you know, I mean, that is universal. I think, you know, being the rebels, being a rebel, I think there's a lot of, a lot of people that can identify or want to identify with that. So. [Laura] But he's not even really rebellious in the song. He's kind of, he gets out of it by the system just stupiding itself into it. [Nick] Yeah, fair. But to me, see, the reason I say the word rebellious is because though, whether he meant to do it or not, like if he meant to get arrested, so he would get out of the draft, that's what I mean by kind of rebelling, rebuking that system. You know what I mean? I'm not sure in the context of the song, if it was the consequence of his actions that did it, or that he purposely was trying to get arrested. That's the part I couldn't really follow. [Laura] No, it's actually, I mean, it's actually very literal. There was a church, there was an Alice who lived in this church, she and her husband, Ray. So I know a lot about this song, too much, because I used to live in Massachusetts. And I wrote a book about the church, where this all took place. So I wrote all about the history of that building. And then I ended up volunteering for the Guthrie Center, which was Arlo Guthrie's nonprofit and folk music series that was run out of that church. So I live near there. And I interviewed Alice, there was an Alice. And she at the time that I interviewed her was living out in Provincetown, Massachusetts. She had a bed and breakfast. And she was very, very welcoming and very nice. It seemed to me that she had a little bit of, you know, she wasn't sure what my take would be on, you know, the story or her, or she's one of those people who's kind of thrust by this song into being kind of a public figure. And so back in the 60s, Alice and her husband, they were renovating this deconsecrated church. So they had a lot of construction debris and junk. Arlo and his friend said, we'll take your junk out. You know, after Thanksgiving dinner, we'll take it to the dump. And the dump was closed on Thanksgiving. So they went and dumped it illegally, and got arrested for littering. And then later, because he had a criminal record, he got put into this category of, you know, potentially not moral enough to join the army people. And so he, I'm sure this was something that he developed over time, you know, to make this whole story. But yeah, I think that being in the context helps a lot. [Nick] Yeah, I think, and I guess if I'd known the history more, I guess I wasn't taking it as literal as listening to it. And I just try to get those meanings out of it, try to figure out the point. And even says at the beginning, so literally, he says this song, the song's named Alice restaurant, she doesn't own a restaurant. You know what I mean? So you're right. I mean, I guess I was looking more into it than what I needed to do more work that I needed to. Now I have to go back and listen to it. Damn it. [Laura] It's, it's a commitment. You know, it's not like, I'll just throw that on, you know? [Nick] Yeah. No, I mean, I like I said, I got I was happy I got through the second by the third time I didn't get through it. [Laura] And I was like, okay, all right. Yeah. [Nick] Okay. I didn't, you know, 20 minutes. I don't get back. [Laura] But the later version, so that the song is actually we're calling it a 20 minute song. It's actually 18 and a half minutes long. [Nick] Yeah. [Laura] And there's a there's a second version of it that he recorded and updated it, which is longer, where he talks about how the son of Gerald Ford, he met the son of Gerald Ford, they lived in the White House after the Nixon administration. And so he says that the Nixon, Nixon record library was still there, the records that he had, and that Alice's restaurant was one of the records. Oh, wow. And so that the joke is, you know, what was Nixon listening to on that gap in the tapes? How many things do you know that are exactly 18 and a half minutes? [Nick] That's a great little tie. Yeah, that's cute. And you never know. [Laura] You never know. Yeah, so yeah, if you have the vinyl record, Alice's restaurant takes up the entire A side of that. [Nick] Oh, wow. [Laura] So yeah, makes sense. Yeah. [Nick] I didn't know that either. [Laura] They made a movie out of it, which is how it ended up in this book. Arthur Penn, who directed Bonnie and Clyde directed it. And it's, you know, it's an it's an odd movie. It has Arlo playing himself. And yeah, the character of Clara sort of rents it as like, she wants to dip into the counterculture because she likes countercultural things. [Nick] Gotcha. Yeah, I've never, I didn't know it was a movie either. So is Arlo a good actor? Have you seen it? [Laura] He's playing himself. And I would say that, you know, he's, it's hard to judge, you know, but I think that he's not super comfortable pretending to be himself. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's just a weird thing. It's like him with his real friends acting at things that he really did, but in a kind of heightened fictional way. [Nick] And sure, in a more structured way for a lot of them. Yeah, got it. [Laura] And the directors, I think they wanted to do a lot more about what hippies were about and the vibe it had. It had a little bit of that, like, older generation director trying to explain the young people vibe to it. [Nick] But yeah, I probably lost some of this edge that the song kind of had, you know what I mean? When you've got to kind of water it down for the masses. That's got to be the idea, you know, somewhat. [Laura] But one thing that I think, well, I'll get, I think I'll get to it when we get, when we move on to Cabaret, but I think there are certain things about a real person being made a fictional character that this song and Cabaret have in common. So I guess we do the grade thing before we move on. You are giving it a low grade. Yeah. [Nick] I mean, I've never, I mean, I haven't, there's not a song, I mean, I'm sure there's songs out there I'd give a D, an E, an F2, all that stuff. I would still keep this in the category of C. I feel like, because it is, you know, it's may not be my cup of tea, but it definitely was cutting edge for its day, I believe. You know, it was, it definitely had a message that stuck with people. So I'd say like a C- for me on that one. [Laura] Okay. Well, I like it. I'm going to give it an A. I think it's, you know, it was a significant song and definitely original, you know, this sort of talking blues, joking about current events and beating the man with luck. It's kind of a fun, kind of a fun song. Well, let's go on now to the musical theater. We've got Cabaret, Liza Minnelli. Because it's a reference to the film, I could have chosen any song from Cabaret, but I went with Cabaret because it seemed to make sense. [Nick] I would have known any song you chose. I would have, but I'm not talking about any of them. [Laura] I went back and forth between like, welcome and bienvenue and Cabaret. [Nick] Cabaret is a storytelling song that granted, I've seen the musical, I've seen the movie, but you don't need to see either of those to appreciate the message that Cabaret is putting forth. And, but when you know how it's telling you to live your life freely and the way you want to live it, and because you never know when you're going to die, but when you know it under the plot line of war, of racism, of people being murdered, it brings, it makes it even more powerful. That, hey, literally I could die tomorrow. So let's enjoy life. Let's live it up. Yes. We're going to talk about Liza Minnelli. I'm assuming mostly even though that's the one you gave me was Liza. And she took it, made it her own. Absolutely. And it's one of those songs that if you don't listen to the words, it's a toe tapper, right? It's going to keep you, you know, going to keep you happy, this, that, but when you really kind of listen, and when you really know what the plot is and when it takes place in Germany, then I think it really just is an amazing work of art, work, a piece of music, work of art with an amazing message. [Laura] Yeah. I think that a lot of, you know, if you see like, say a YouTube reaction video, and someone's just watching Liza Minnelli singing cabaret, a lot of times they just, they don't have the context at all of, you know, the performance, the whole show. And that adds so many layers to what you're watching and listening to. If you're just, I mean, you can appreciate it, it's just a song, especially Liza Minnelli's version is sort of bravura, you know. But if you're just hearing that, you know, you're, you're missing a lot. [Nick] I also feel like if you're playing it for someone that does not appreciate or have a musical theatre background or history, and I don't mean background like they perform, but just having a love, like my musical theatre background came from my mom before I got involved. So I was listening to West Side Story, Fiddler on the Roof, you know, and not knowing it was any different, so to speak, than Ray Charles, even though it was a different genre, but it was all equally good music to my mom, you know, musical theatre, back at that time, people went and saw shows, they bought the soundtracks like crazy. And that has changed. You know what I mean? I'm not I can't give once again, my fake facts. I can't give you know, any information to back that up. But you just know just based on kind of if I were to look something up. And I don't even think Cabaret charted. I don't it was 72 for the movie. [Laura] You know, I was trying to find and I don't think that it was the soundtrack charted at 25. But I don't think it was released as a single. [Nick] And even when it was on Liza with a Z, did I know that was also on that line? [Laura] It may be her, you know, her Liza with a Z was probably a single, but I didn't find any sort of chart presence for it as an individual song. [Nick] Yeah, I didn't look I just and granted, I was two years old when it came out. So it's not that I would know, you know, but I just remember it. I do feel like even though it's probably the most well known song from the show, just be you know, just because it's the title as well as it's got that razzle dazzle. I feel like it's it's definitely a misunderstood song it because I think people do hear it and they don't know the history. They just think it's probably some weird musical theater song about living life and not realizing the undertone of how sad it is that what's going on in the world around them. And this is their escapist song. [Laura] Yeah, and some people, you know, they think that Liza Minnelli's version is too competent. Like Sally Bowles is supposed to be kind of, you know, she's supposed to be sort of deluded as to her ability to yeah, her talent. So there are people who think that she's miscast. Have you I assume you've seen a number of versions? [Nick] Yeah, I've seen it on Broadway, seen it in tour, seen the movie. And I know Natasha Richardson was there and she's not known for being a singer at all. And I know it was, you know, everyone said her like her voice was, you know, it was, let's say rough around the edges. But like you say, you know, Sally Bowles is but is more her talents less, you know, less than what she thinks is. But I will say this, Sally Bowles in the movie is written differently than Sally Bowles in the musical slightly, you know what I mean? So she's definitely more flighty in the movie. She's definitely more. I think she's more. It's an old term, like Lucy Goosey, you know, in the movie. And so, you know, I feel like I feel like she was cast well, if that's what they're trying to do. Now, I also think Liza took it and made her own. And I like Liza, you know, I'm required to, but I like her, but I'm not like, oh, Liza, I can name maybe three of her songs in my lifetime. You know, so for me, it is one of those things where as much as I love her, I think she's an artist. I don't listen to a lot of her stuff because she's got her voice is very unique, very Broadway, you know what I mean? Very in your face, almost full on. I feel like she's a full on person almost every time when she sings. And that's great. But sometimes those nuances, I think, are there. But I think she was cast great for the movie. I don't know if I'd seen her on Broadway if I feel the same about how it was written. But, you know, there's certain characters. [Laura] I think the movie is really sort of laying into that idea of, you know, this ignoring what's going on around them and this danger, this darkness. And she's very willfully choosing not to see it, not to be upset by it, to just be like, I'm happy. Everything's fun. Everything's great. And it's a big contrast with what's happening. And I think that that's where the drama lies with her character in that version. [Nick] Yeah. And I agree. I haven't seen the movie in several years, but I have seen it several times. So I do feel like, you know, I have a good base behind it. And it's not the most cutting song of all the songs. The Money song is ridiculously, you know, like a toxic society song to me, you know? And then because there's other songs that are fun. The Three Ladies about sexual freedom. But to me, Money is the best song. There's something about that song, because it's a patter song. I love patterns. But it also talks about society, if you happen to be rich. And within the context of that musical, that's true, because people who were rich didn't have an opportunity to escape. You know what I mean? If they knew well enough in advance was, you know, just by being rich, they may have got, they probably had a better chance of getting out or did some in some cases. And I don't what I don't know is in the musical, I'm assuming Cabaret is the last number in the musical as well as it is in the movie. But I don't remember. And I feel like that's like a well played song at the end, because there are other songs that they could have done that may have fit or other songs to go to add it. And I think it's, it's, it's just telling in the movie, they do it in a way that it's clear that Sally's one of the few people left performing. And so it's very, it's that juxtaposition of the world's crumbling around them, but she's keeping that stiff upper lip, so to speak, that I'm going to stick to who I am, and say, life is, you know, a bowl of cherries, whatever it's called, you know, Sally Bowles was based on a real person, too. [Laura] So she was sort of like the Alice of Alice's restaurant. Her name was Jean Ross. She never liked the depiction of herself in this book, and definitely not in the movie. Because after Berlin, she went on to be kind of a political writer and a social activist. And she's kind of presented as someone who's just oblivious to what's going on around her. [Nick] Yeah, that's true. I would imagine, you know, but I feel like, you know, sometimes people's view of you doesn't make you who you are. Not sometimes, every time. But sometimes every time. But I think it's funny this, I do feel like we can't see who we are sometimes either, you know, what we view is who we are, but how we come across can be two different things. Because it's from our perspective. [Laura] And probably who she was in her 20s, you know, is different from who she was in her 40s. [Nick] Absolutely. Yeah. Because that's very true. Because I have a lot of friends that I think it's funny nowadays as they, you know, they, drinking's a sin, and, you know, premarital sex is a sin. They're our age now. But you know a few of them from college. And trust me, they were sinning, but now they're not sinning anymore. They don't want anyone else to do it. It's okay that they did it, you know. So it is true. You know, they're different people. I'm not even friends with some of those people anymore, because they changed so, so drastically. And as I go, I knew you when, I knew you when you were passed out on the floor, lady, don't. Can't come at me with this. But yeah. Do you like the musical? Are you a fan of the musical? [Laura] Yeah, yeah, I like the musical. And I think I like it. I don't know. It seems very timely right now. [Nick] Yeah. [Laura] You know, with this, when the world is going nuts around you, like what do you do about it? You know, do you check out? Do you, like the hippies and, you know, Alice's Restaurant, do you like tune in, turn on, drop out? You know, or do you go and protest? Or do you, what do you do? Absolutely. And Cabaret, they don't want to see this, you know, what's happening in the world around them. They just can't cope with it. And so they're just going to continue doing what they've been doing. It's not going to touch them. [Nick] Yeah. And it does, though. It does, in the movie, at least. I mean, it does, it touches them. And I think that's ultimately the message that sitting by and being complacent isn't necessarily, sometimes it's easiest to do, but it's always the right thing to do. You know, I think this is another musical talk about, like, that's had, like you said, a shelf life because it's plots and themes are pretty timely that what was written in 72. I mean, in Racy, I mean, Racy as, you know, I almost swore. I told you I'm a swear. Racy is F because, you know, because, you know, they talk about the, the two ladies song, you know what I mean? The money song where they're kind of calling out capitalism, where they're talking, you know, they're calling out the money song with the two ladies. I mean, you know, it's about a throuple and, you know what I mean? And also more people joining in and, you know what I mean, it's talking about free love and, and even in 72, that was a risky proposition. And so for a musical, it was fairly racy. And, and even by today's standards, singing so overtly about a throuple would be racy, you know, it's still people like, oh, well, you know. [Laura] I think that things that are racy, like there are periods where things are more permissive and periods where things are racy, like it doesn't just, it's not like in the olden days, people were innocent and pure. And then, you know, now things are more open. I think it goes in waves and there are periods when people are kind of moralizing and cracking down and periods when people are trying to experiment and change the world and it's more out in the open. [Nick] No, absolutely. But I mean, I think it does still reflect in today's, because there are more, you know, being a throuple is still to me, I think general society frowned upon, not accepted. I mean, a, you know, but it's definitely something more common. You hear of Mormon, you know, the Mormon religion, you know, these things, Mormon wise, a big show, I think, you know, those are things that I think, even though they're more in the spotlight slash limelight, it's still not an acceptance thing yet. [Laura] But there's nothing new under the sun. [Nick] Someday again, there will be. No, you're right. [Laura] I mean, I saw an interview with Joel Gray, the original emcee from Cabaret, and he was talking about, you know, when Alan Cummings was doing his version, and people were talking about like how racy it was, how much more racy. And it kind of offended Joel Gray, who was like, you know, it was very racy when we did it, you know? [Nick] Yeah. Well, and I remember, I do remember that. I do remember Alan Cummings playing, like really pushing the bisexual vibe, as opposed to Joel Gray, I think didn't, I don't think, like in both versions, I did see Alan Cummings actually. So I thought he was amazing. But I do think, for my money, Joel Gray will always be right, the OG and did a great job. And I think he came across more ambiguous, and he did it on purpose. He didn't, it wasn't, he wasn't throwing it in your face. And there's nothing wrong with either version. [Laura] They're both great versions. I think that Joel Gray had more of a, like a creepy edge, where you didn't know, you didn't know what he was trying to do. You know, there was a mystery about him. Yeah, and you didn't know if you could trust him. Yeah, yeah. [Nick] Yeah. Where with, with Alan Cumming, you didn't, I didn't see any kind of, I didn't have a concern. He was doing it, like, Alan Cummings' character was just like, let's have fun. You know what I mean? Like, it was good. But that was, he was definitely did that. And you're right, Joel's character was more nuanced and more, like you said, like, not, you know, I'm not sure if I should be creeped out. [Laura] Right, he's welcoming me. But what is he welcoming me to exactly? [Nick] Exactly. Yeah, no, absolutely. That's, that's a good, good point. [Laura] So I guess before we wrap up, anything more about Liza Minnelli's Cabaret in particular? [Nick] I just, if you haven't seen it, see it, whoever's listening, because it's amazing. And I think, and once again, I talked about earlier in the conversation, I know it's on the list of, like, best musicals of all time. It's almost always in the top 30. And I don't think it's ever going to go anywhere. I think that's how, what a staple it is, and way ahead of its time that it was, you know, I give it, you know, my A plus. [Laura] I give it, yeah, an A too, yeah. [Nick] And my thing is, if you throw the musical theater my way, I will be harsh. If it needs it. [Laura] I think it's, I think it's Liza Minnelli's signature song for a reason, you know? [Nick] Yeah, absolutely. She probably doesn't want to sing it sometimes anymore. But yeah, I mean, people equate that movie, that song with her, and she won the Oscar for it. And so, I mean, and she's another one that you can put in the Rick Askey category. She did have a good career in musical theater, and she has a huge gay following, which kind of boosted that up. But she never, like, she had a couple movies, she had a couple things. But that was over the course of what, five years, six years? And then she kind of has stayed in the limelight, but not spotlight. [Laura] I don't know, is she doing more, like, theater that made her, like, I think a lot of those, you know, theater actors, they, if you're just, if you're not into the Broadway world or something, you wouldn't know what they're up to, you know? [Nick] And that's where I think she kind of really, I think where she wanted to be, ultimately. And then again, she's, you know, Judy Garland's daughter. So I mean, she has a built in fan base based on that. But she also, I think, I know when I performed, performing live, the biggest thrill for me was the applause at the end, was the people coming up and saying how wonderful I was, whether I was or not sometimes, but I'm saying, you know what I mean? The accolades you get, that is an addiction in itself, right? And so you don't get that by doing movies. I mean, you can get it on the red carpet, I guess, you know, people cheering for you. [Laura] It's different getting applause on the red carpet or something than being in that moment with the audience and they're spontaneously reacting to something in real time. And you're relating to them. [Nick] Yeah, they just saw what you did. [Laura] Yeah. Yeah. In that moment. [Nick] That you shared your art with them in that, you're right, in that moment, not, you know, and it was a true connection because it was the energies all throughout the theater. You know, because you've all, we've been there when it's been a crap ass crowd and you're like, oh my God, like, can we please get this Sunday crowd out of here trying to get like a, you know, cause nothing's hitting for whatever reason. And so, you know, it does, it can make a difference in the show. So I think she's the kind of person, once again, no facts or any information to back me up that I read or anything, but I just feel that she seems like the kind of person that really did enjoy the connection with the fans as opposed to, you know, that was part of her artist artistry, I guess I would say. [Laura] Yeah. And a lot of times when someone sort of, they kind of disappear from your consciousness, you don't know why. And a lot of times, like maybe someone's an actor, you say, what happened? I haven't seen him for a long time. And then you discover like, wow, he's a super successful director. And I didn't know, you know, so. [Nick] And for some people, I think, you know, if I had the opportunity, if someone said to me, Hey, you want to get back into singing and acting again? My first choice to, can you get me on Broadway? I would, that would be, I wouldn't say, can you get me in a movie? I'd be like, I could love to be on Broadway. You know what I mean? So I think it's just kind of built in that once you are a theater person, and if you're a true theater person, I feel like, even though you might want to do other venues and other disciplines, I do believe that your one love is always that live. I don't think she was putting out sort of pop records and. No. [Laura] Yeah. [Nick] So. No, she was always doing like mostly musical theater songs. She did a couple pop songs. She covered them, but I couldn't tell you if they're any good. I just know. I remember hearing some things. I remember, you know what I mean? But, but yeah, I think she, once again, I think back then, especially during her heyday, a lot of people stuck with their lady. Julie Andrews was rare. And even Julie Andrews did mostly musicals in the beginning. You know what I mean? And so Barbara Streisand was a rare. Now it's very, very common. I mean, I know, you know, I know a lot of people that, Oh, they were on Broadway. Oh, they got to start on Broadway. I didn't know. You know what I mean? So, and I think in today's technology filled world where anyone can be on screen, that's more of the go-to anyway now, because, you know, they, we don't, we may record Broadway shows, but they don't really, you know what I mean? They don't showcase them live every night. You can't buy a ticket every night to watch a Broadway show live from your own. They say Broadway's dying. So they've been saying that for 20 years. So I don't know. [Laura] No, I don't, you know, whenever a new medium comes in, they say the old ones are dying and they've been saying theater is dying, you know, for a century. [Nick] Yeah, that's true. That's true. They have been, and Broadway has changed a lot. So, you know, I mean, it's, it's kept up with the times in a lot of ways, but I won't mention Spider-Man, the musical. [Laura] That's, anyway, I guess, I guess that's a note to end on Spider-Man. [Nick] Bring up a total flop. Excellent. Good idea. Well, thank you. I always appreciate it. It's always fun doing this with you. So thank you. [Laura] Thank you very much for coming. And next time I'll have more of a voice, I hope. [Nick] It's all right. Thank God I talked enough for everyone.