[Laura ] A meat dress isn't that sexy. [Nick] Well, not to you and me, but I don't know. I feel like it was a weird choice, right, for me. But at the same time, she was making a statement. Like Madonna made her statements in her way. She was making a statement. Could you tell me what it was, though? I don't know what it was. [Laura ] Look at me. [Nick] Yeah, I guess there. [Laura ] Here we are with the Saturn's Favorite Music Podcast. It's a podcast based around the novel Saturn's Favorite Music. But it's all about the music. So we go through the songs one by one, each reference. And we do a deep dive into the music with lots of friends. And a friend today is Nick Bean. How are you doing? [Nick] I'm doing great. How are you? [Laura ] I'm doing great, too. Well, I'm really excited to have you on. We go way back. [Nick] Way back, yes. [Laura ] We were in theater together a long time ago. And tell me a little bit about your musical background and what you'd be listening to. [Nick] Well, as you know, as we did theater together. And I did mostly musical theater. And I did mostly show choir back in college. But I grew up, like my mom, loved more soul music. So Ray Charles, I know a bunch of Ray Charles. Because she would listen to Ray Charles every day. I also grew up on musicals. Because she loved West Side Story. She loved Brigadoon, Oklahoma, A Throne Room. So that was kind of where my love of musical theater started and grew from there. And then my love for R&B and soul, which although I joke I'm a pop princess. I love my pop music. But I am definitely eclectic in all other areas. Because I just love music in general. Because I'm a firm believer that music takes you places that no other sense can take you in certain ways. And so I've always just been big on all kinds of music. So as I've gotten older, I tend to stay old man current. With pop music and all kinds of different music. But music's at the top 40. Because I do like to, once again, I love music. I love hearing new things. And then I like to point out that I'm a lyric guy. Because I was a singer. And so lyrics can make or break a song for me sometimes. It can still be great music. But if the lyrics are redundant, ridiculous, whatever you want to call it. I kind of tap out of it. You know, again, I'm good. Because I just don't, it can ruin it for me. I like a lot of people who are more on the musician side. Where their instrumental players can be ruined, I think. If they feel like it's not well written, not well played or performed. [Laura ] Yeah, I've found, especially doing this, where you spend a lot of time with the song. And I'm kind of analyzing the music. And then I'm thinking about the lyrics. And it's interesting how often there's kind of a mismatch between the two. [Nick] Yeah, absolutely. I agree. And one of the songs in particular, it's not that there's necessarily a mismatch. But when we get to it, I'll kind of highlight it. Where I felt like, well actually two of the songs. Where I felt like they didn't all line up completely. You know what I mean? Like the way I thought they would with the song. But also with the spirit of the song. Because that to me is also important. Because I feel like if the song, if the music itself, if the written music is presenting a certain vibe. And then the lyrics aren't going with it. That also throws me off. Not just because the lyrics are written poorly. But they just don't seem to gel with the vibe of the song. If it's an angry lyric and the song isn't giving that angry vibe, that frustrates me I guess. You know? [Laura ] Yeah, or if it's a breakup song and it sounds like it's a love song. [Nick] Yes, yeah. Or if it's like a dance. It's a dance song, but it's a breakup song. Which still can work. Those things can work. But not as well. You know what I mean? [Laura ] Hey, I love my Gloria Gaynor. Amen. [Nick] Since she's on the list. [Laura ] Well why don't we jump into these songs. The first song, the first two songs are songs that came up during the morning show on the fictional radio station. And of course they had an oldies category, which this would be sort of the outer edge of the oldies of the oldies category in 1992. And it's the Dave Clark Five over and over. They were kind of, I looked up in the newspaper archives and a lot of the newspapers at this time were doing a who's better, the Dave Clark Five or the Beatles kind of thing. [Nick] Yeah. [Laura ] So they were they were giving the Beatles a run for their money in 1965. [Nick] In theory, in my opinion, they were part of the British invasion. Now I will say this is the song I didn't know. And I'd heard of the DC Five. I don't abbreviate it. The DC Five, the Dave Clark Five. You're right. Yeah, hip old man. Anyway, but I'd never heard over and over. And that was kind of one of the songs I was talking about where the lyrics to me are kind of vague, you know, like, like, yes, the point is, you know, he's trying they're trying to get with this girl and they're going to be consistent, which in today's environment of Me Too and all that stuff, the song does come across a little bit on the aggressive side. Right. She says no over and over again. And they're like, no, no, no, you're going to date me, you know, so that part and having that not being the song I ever heard. It's funny that had I heard it when I was in my 20s, I wouldn't have thought that at all. But now as a society, we've changed. The first thing I thought of is, you know, I don't want to use a certain word, but this is a little pushy, you know. [Laura ] The artist who recorded it first was Robert James Byrd. He did it in the 50s. [Nick] Yes. [Laura ] And I, I listened to the 50s version and it has more of an Elvis sound like both of these versions are of their time. And but the Bobby, the the Byrd version, actually, he went by the stage named Bobby Day. The Bobby Day version had an extra verse to it. So when you were talking about it being kind of, you know, a non-Me Too kind of song, it starts out. He wants to go to the party. He thinks the party is going to be a drag. Yes. And then he sees this girl and he goes over and over and over again. She says, I'm waiting for my date. And he keeps trying, keeps trying. And then the Dave Clark Five song ends. The Bobby Day version goes on with him saying he's basically never going to stop asking over and over again. So I think I think that it's good that the Dave Clark Five left that verse off. [Nick] Yeah, probably really. Well, and the thing was, because even the day, you know, in the Dave Clark version, it is very it's like I said, it's it's it's. It doesn't come across as pushy musically. You know what I mean? It comes across as is, you know, catchy and and enthusiastic. Let's say, you know what I mean? That this is woman, this girl, so beautiful woman to be able. They cannot help himself. So I get that. But and I knew I didn't know there's additional lyrics. I just remember when I little I read about the song that it said that he was very, you know, that they just were going to keep doing it. But I didn't hear that in the song. So that's so funny that you brought up the part that they were talking about the original song and whatever article I wrote or read, because I didn't know that that he was like, I'm never going to give up because they'd said that. But I don't hear that in the song. [Laura ] I don't have a date, dude. [Nick] You know, it's kind of funny, though, because, you know, the whole song, too, is based on the fact that love at first sight. [Laura ] Yeah. Right. [Nick] Because they don't know they don't. He says that he doesn't know her. It's not like, you know, he sees her and knows she's going to be his girlfriend. And that to me is the part that's like stalkerish. Right. [Laura ] I've chosen you. [Nick] Lucky you. [Laura ] There's some Beatles songs that are kind of in that vein, too, where it's like, I've seen you. I've chosen you. I'm I'm going to go get you, you know? [Nick] Yeah. Well, a lot of songs when you really I mean, and we'll probably live through this. But if you're old enough, a lot of songs can be very like when you really dissect them, because I know we're talking about Mariah Carey later. There's a song that she has. I would put in that category where, you know, she's talking about someone that they're no longer together, but they're meant to be together. You know what I mean? So I'm like, I'm kind of like, I always thought that particular song that made her song a stalker. Like I was like, well, it's one of her most popular songs, if I'm not mistaken. I was like, oh, it's so romantic. I'm like, is it is it? And also, I was surprised because it was a huge hit for them. I think the only number one hit they had in the States, if I'm correct. But I was surprised because I feel like it's a catchy song, sure. But I thought it like compared to the Beatles, and maybe it's because we're programmed about the Beatles being so amazing and they won that war. You know what I mean? They definitely won the war and came out on top. But I kind of feel like it just pales in comparison to almost any Beatles song I know. You know, the Beatles had a lot more tools in their toolbox, I think, than the Dave Clark five. That's true. And also they had at that point they had they were the British invasion at first. So I mean, anyone that's jumping on that bandwagon, right? [Laura ] The news clippings kind of had that sort of old folks trying to understand the young generation feel to it. And, you know, they're asking them right in and tell us who's your favorite, you know, the Beatles or the Dave Clark five. They were given a run for money for at least a short period because I think they did a couple of movies [Nick] They did that? I don't know. [Laura ] OK, so they were really they were a big thing. They were big thing in 65 for a very short time. [Nick] But the thing is, when I think of a lot of bands, too, like looking at it now, I knew of them, but not that much about them. I maybe knew like a song or two and even wasn't over and over. But I can when I when I hear an artist name that was big in any way, even if it wasn't my my time, you know, you saw I can usually name like one big song they did. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, there's a reason why they were big. And with the Dave Clark five, I can't tell you. I mean, other than the one that you sent me, but I couldn't tell you what they did. I just don't remember that name. I remember, you know, and then when I kind of went through the song list, I'm with the PDM, my best friend, you know, I was like, oh, you know, I recognize names, I think. But I wasn't 100 percent sure because nothing sprung to mind, which is odd to me since they were such a big band, especially because it was 65, which means my mom would have the radio on. She did enjoy the Beatles herself. And, you know, I would think even though I think I wasn't born to the 70s, 1970, but at the same time, I would she would have it on stations that would play that stuff. You know, the older, the older you can't see the air quotes people, but I've said the older music from, you know, five, six years ago. So I was born. [Laura ] Yeah, I think they broke up the year that you were born. OK, so and and unlike the Beatles, I think that they they owned their own stuff. And so they can you know, they controlled it. And I think they didn't do a really good job just keeping it current and available. You know, when there was no one to market it like a record label or something. Well, my my big association with the Dave Clark five and this song in particular, this is one of those ones from when I worked in radio. And the reason that it's stuck in my memory more than some of the old songs that were in the oldies category was that it's a minute and 51 seconds long. [Nick] Yeah. Crazy short. [Laura ] So if you're queuing up vinyl records, which I was, you know, you have about enough time to get it queued up. You know, you're running to get the next record queued up. You don't have any spare time. And it does it doesn't I don't think it ends cold, but it's pretty cold. So you can get tripped out pretty well by this song. [Nick] And I wouldn't know like as a DJ, I wouldn't know any of that stuff because I've never you know what I mean? I've never done that. That wouldn't be a world I'm familiar with. But it makes sense because two minutes goes by quick. And yeah, if you're not I would think that's the kind of song that when if you were putting that on because it was requested, you already have to kind of know what you're going to do next if you were doing right next. You know what I mean? So that you could have it probably ready to go. I mean, if you don't have it ready to go, I imagine you wouldn't make it like you're saying. [Laura ] No, you have to put you have to plan ahead. You go, I'm putting on the Dave Clark five. OK, you know, yeah, I got to be ready. [Nick] And it did seem almost ridiculously short, but I know there's other short songs out there, but two minutes is really, really short by any standard for a song, I think, you know? [Laura ] Yeah, well, you know, they decided that the original version was just too long. They couldn't do the full thing, you know? [Nick] Yeah, that's that's yeah. That extra verse really would have taken maybe another because the funny thing about the Dave Clark song is it's very repetitive. It's like the original. I'm sure it's very repetitive. You know, they say a lot. It's over and over and over and over. Drag joke on how repetitive it is sometimes, you know? And so I feel like I do feel like they probably could have pushed another verse on there and been OK, but maybe change the lyrics a little bit, maybe just be like, well, maybe I'll see if she's still single by the time I leave. I'll wait. [Nick] I'll wait. See if I can get her number. [Nick] Exactly. I'm going to get her pizza sometime. I don't know. Oh, no, it would be, back then it'd be a shake or milkshake. [Laura ] Yeah, go to the soda fountain. They did have a couple of songs that we played. This was the one that I remember most. They're both really short. They're both in that kind of two minute range. The biggest UK hit was something called Glad All Over, which I don't think we played. It wasn't a huge hit here, I don't think. So that's my Dave Clark five experience. [Nick] Well, you asking me to do this, you know, and I honestly thought when you initially talked about it, I thought, oh, she's having to do some musical theater songs because she knows who I am. You know what I mean? And then you're like, oh, this isn't cool. But you basically, even though I kind of knew who the DC five were, I didn't like it was kind of a cool experience doing this. You're just based on that alone. I got to learn about an artist better and I got, you know, I got to hear not the song they particularly liked, but, you know, it was still just a song that was, you know, I mean, it's a song. [Laura ] So if you were giving a letter grade, where would you put the Dave Clark five? [Nick] Um, I'm going to always be more generous than not because I appreciate the artistry behind it, no matter what. But but this feels really low to me, but honestly, based on that song alone, I would say a C. How about you? [Laura ] Yeah, I mean, I guess I've got I like the the drum forwardness of it, the kind of poundiness of it. And it's got it's got some fun energy to it. It's kind of, I don't know, it goes by in a minute and a half, like I said, and there's like that song raced by, you know? Yeah, I mean, it's probably in the C range. [Nick] It's just I think, too, it's lyrically it's just I just lyrically don't think it's that well written of a song lyrically. It's it's very repetitive and not necessarily in a good way for me. I can't wait to get to that. I'm going to use the chorus really just read you up and get you going. And in this case, I felt like it just kind of I don't say flatline because that sounds really, really mean. But I felt like it, even though it had it didn't go anywhere. Does that make sense? [Laura ] Like it wasn't a song that I mean, since it's over and over, it's kind of playing out. [Nick] It's theme like it ain't lying. [Laura ] Yeah, yeah. Stereogram called the Dave Clark Band with a big, dumb beat for four stomp that overwhelmed everything around it. OK, yeah, I might agree with that. [Nick] Yeah. [Laura ] OK, so let's move on to the second song that they were playing during the morning show. This is Rod Stewart's Motown song from 1991. It name checks the miracles, but it was performed with the Temptations. Rod Stewart with the Temptations. The Temptations at that time were not the original Temptations. This is 1991. But it had a couple of the original members left, and it actually came out two days after the original Temptations singer David Ruffin died. So what was what was your feeling on the Motown song? [Nick] So this song I knew of, it's another song that I knew I've heard on the radio. This is, you know, we were in college at this time when the song was out. So even though I've always liked Rod Stewart, I wouldn't say that I'm a stan of him. I would say that I loved certain songs. Absolutely. But I'd never bought an album of his. I'd never you know what I mean? So I was never like a big fan. But that song I like because I do like Motown. I do like that era of music. I do appreciate what Motown has done for music in general and still does for music. And that's what that song is about. That song is about appreciating what past artists have done, the Miracles in particular. And, you know, he says the Miracles. And when I was listening to the song, I hadn't heard it in years. And frankly, the only part of the song that I knew was, you know, give me the Motown records. That's why I remember the song. I don't put it on the window. And, you know, and so I never were a lot of songs. I can I can sing every lyric, you know, and this one I couldn't. But I remember him talking about the Miracles and the song that pops in my head. Two of them for the Miracles right away. And I didn't love the Miracles per se, but shop around. My mama told me you better shop rather than the tears of a clown. So those are the two songs by them. I mean, I know they had a ton more. I'm not. But those are the two that to me are instantly recognizable with them and Smokey Robinson. [Laura] Just recently, I've started to appreciate just how much Smokey Robinson contributed to Motown overall. You know, I knew that he wrote for himself and for the Miracles, but he wrote some of the biggest hits for the Marvelettes, the Temptations, Mary Wells, Marvin Gaye, Jackson Five. Some of his biggest hits were the Temptations, My Girl and Get Ready. He wrote with the Miracles. I second that emotion tracks of my tears, tears of a clown. It's hard to imagine Motown without Smokey Robinson. [Nick] The song itself, the Motown song. I didn't know the name of the song. That was the one thing I thought was when when you had sent it to me, I was like, Rod Stewart did a Motown song. And as soon as I put it on, I was like, oh, my God, this is called the Motown song. I just didn't know. I would have thought it was a bring me some of those Motown records. I just didn't know it was called the Motown song. But I think it is. I think that the coolest thing about that whole song to me is the obvious love that he has for Motown era, for the artists. Because when I was looking at it again, I did put captions on so I could see the lyrics just to really help me remember. And I was trying to remember, does he say miracles every time or did he? Because either me, we could be kind of switched artists. You know what I mean? So then like when the next verse or the next chorus, make the temptations or, you know, other artists that he really enjoyed or respected. But he didn't. He kept with the Miracles, which was fine. [Laura] Sounds good with the music. [Nick] Yeah, it does. [Laura] And the Temptations wouldn't. [Nick] Yeah, it may not go as well. Say it real quick. No, and my thing is, is that's where I just get a little because I am such a lyric guy. And to me, when I listen to things and I am, you know, I do. I'm very, I try. I'm very creative in my world. I think I am, at least it's so, you know, to me, when I think about because I used to do improv and so with improv, you just kind of come up with things and a really big on rhyming with songs, but it doesn't happen. But I just grew up in an era where rhyming is kind of what you did. And, you know, in a lot of cases, it's just sometimes when it doesn't rhyme, it can throw me off. But this was one of the situations where I just feel I have this thing in my mind will always be next level in my mind if certain changes were made. But, you know, I can't even write a lick of a lyric. So it's so funny that I want to improve other people's, you know, in my mind. But his song to me is just like, you know, it. I think a lot of people know it, but don't realize they know it. That song. Does that make sense? [Laura] Yeah. And I'm trying to see. Let's see. It peaked at number 10 on Billboard and number three on the adult contemporary chart. So it was a was a hit, but it's not one of those ones that you say, you know, if you were on a game show and said, name a Rod Stewart song. Yeah. Motown song is not going to be the one that comes up. [Nick] I don't think, you know, I would think his earlier stuff. I mean, and the truth was in the 90s, he was still big. But, you know, the 80s, he was huge. And, you know, and I was I remember that, you know, is it I can't because of my age. If you want my body and do you think I'm sexy? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's I think that's the song anyone that knows Rod Stewart would equate with him. You know, someone said, hey, name a Rod Stewart song. If you know Rod Stewart songs, I think that's the one that I think comes up. You know what I mean? Because it was at the time a racy song. But so I feel like him as he was getting older and was probably appreciative more of maybe things he wasn't when he was younger, like all of us can get. You know what I mean? There's certain things that I just didn't appreciate when I was younger. I was too young to get it. [Laura] You know, I was trying to figure out if this one sounds like a Motown song. And I I don't think it has a Motown sound. It's a very it's a very poppy sound. I think it's got some cool piano in it. And it's, of course, got the temptations in it, which brings it more into that Motown space. But, you know, I was trying to think, like, you know, if it was done by the Miracles or something, would it sound like a Motown song? And I'm not sure it does. [Nick] Yeah, I would agree with you on that. And I would also say that, honestly, to bring the temptations in, I thought they were kind of underused. Yeah, I mean, it's I mean, it's a it was a great thing to do. Get them back on the map for certain audiences. And so that's that is pretty amazing. But the truth was, when I think of the song, I don't think of the temptations at all. I'm just knowing that they're there in the background. [Laura] Yeah, there's a little bit of that, like, you know, the low the low bass voice, that kind of temptation harmony. But it's true. It's very low in the mix for you. You'd think you'd be like, hey, I've got the temp. It's a song about Motown, right? Yeah, you'd let them shine more. [Nick] Yeah, well, I would think. Yeah, I mean, and it could have been a way because, you know, there's a lot of collaborations where even if you don't, it's even if the person that's collaborating isn't the lead, they still have that moment to shine in the song, you know, or they have their own little little moment. And here, I think, you know, the temptations, you can hear them, you can you know what I mean? But I don't think they get a chance to have their moment to shine. I really feel like they are background and they stay background pretty much. So you can hear them and you can, you know, but it's not they're not a feature. And so that's that was probably disappointing to me, not back then, but listening to it, you know, this time around, I was like, oh, the temptations, you know, and I actually watched the video that was made for it. Have you seen that? [Laura] It's a cartoon. Yeah, isn't he? So I haven't seen the video in a long time, but I remember, you know, ages ago, doesn't he sort of take the piss out of a bunch of contemporary artists like Madonna and stuff like this? [Nick] It's very mean spirited. Yeah, he takes it out of Madonna, Michael Jackson. And I know it's mean spirited in humor. You know what I mean? I know it's humorous in spirit because like Michael Jackson falls down a pothole. [Laura] They pull off the not because the Jackson five were Motown band. Yeah, it also felt like like if you're if you're doing with the video like, oh, music today isn't like it was in the Motown days. Why would you throw Michael Jackson? I was thinking the same thing when I saw that. [Nick] And, you know, and there were more that it was, I think, three or four. Oh, the one that he I think Elton John was in. He did Elton John as well. But I don't remember Elton John being him making fun of Elton John. Elton John was well, he was flamboyant. So maybe that was what he was making fun of. I don't know. But but I felt like Elton John. That's why I was surprised when Michael Jackson went down into the sewer system. [Laura] Maybe it's like the 60s and 70s are good music in the 80s. That's what my grandmother thought. Oh, well, actually, my grandmother thought that music ended with the Beatles. But oh, we used to argue about that when I was a kid. [Nick] It's you know, that's the one thing I have to say. As as you know, you get older. There are times I find myself. Hopefully I don't say it too loud. I'm a loud swab. But you do say what you hated hearing when you were younger. Oh, you kids today or, you know, they don't understand. But when it comes to music, I certainly don't like some forms of music. I certainly don't. It's certain songs. But I'm a firm believer that, you know, if you if you really just open your ears, almost anything, if it's well written, if it's, you know, if it's new, unique, you just got to embrace that. You got to embrace the creativity. And with the Motown song, if you really aren't paying attention to the lyrics, you just think it's a happy song about partying, right? Yeah, I mean, it is. I mean, it is a happy song about, you know, Motown. But you don't realize like what the homage is really to because when you hear, you know, take the speakers, put them on the window. That just sounds like, all right, blog party. Let's go. You know what I mean? And so for me, I think back then I did because I did listen to the lyrics more back then as well. I did get the concept of it. He was really just, you know, applauding what Motown has done. But I didn't. I don't think I got it as deeply as when I heard it for the first time in 30 years, you know, yesterday. So it's funny how the title helps with that. [Laura] If it wasn't called the Motown song, you know, the Miracles reference would just go right by, I think. [Nick] Absolutely. And I'm pretty sure the first couple of listens it did, you know? [Laura] Yeah. You're putting your radio in the window and you're putting your whatever kind of, you know, oh, your Motown record. OK, you know? [Nick] Yeah. Well, a Motown record, that's pretty broad. You know what I mean? I mean, because even in the 90s, Motown was still, it was still, you know, records were around. They were still producing music, if I'm not mistaken. You know, I don't know when they. [Laura] Do you remember Rockwell? Somebody's Watching Me? [Nick] Yes, I always feel like somebody's watching. [Laura] That was Motown. [Nick] Yeah. And so really, if you're not listening to the lyrics, Motown is a long span he could have been singing about. You know what I mean? And even though it says old time or I think he says, you know, those old Motown records. Old is a, you know, it's a descriptive word, but it doesn't it doesn't give you a certain length. Right. So, you know, I mean, so for to me, once again, if you're half listening with a lot of people due to the lyrics, I feel then, you know, old time, I mean, old Motown songs, I could have been, you know, Rockwell was what, 86 or whatever. I'm still old to some when you're young. Right. [Laura] So, I mean, it wasn't that old then either. [Nick] You know, that's true, too. [Laura] Actually, compared to like what the 60s, like 30 years ago. So that would be like what the like the 90s. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So you're right here. So it was old, but. Less old. [Nick] Exactly. And now that we're old, we can appreciate the less. Sorry, we're older. [Laura] Well, that wasn't that long ago. I think of how old that seemed in the, you know, in the 90s, but. [Laura ] So what would your, what is your final verdict on the Motown Song? [Nick] Um, I would say that that's probably to me for a Rod Stewart song. I don't, I'm not giving like super highs. Cause to me, it's not like a, uh, Rod Stewart song. I think I'd give it at least a B, um, maybe B plus cause the Temptations, you know, with the take the T from temptations to make the plus. [Laura ] Well, that's good. Yeah. I'm not, you know, I'm not a huge... the gravelly delivery that, you know, Rod Stewart's kind of gravelly voice isn't, uh, doesn't speak to me. But this song, I actually appreciated how much, how much more dynamic he is, um, in delivering a song, because this, this was actually a song that was written by, um, Larry John McNally and he recorded his own version prior to, um, Rod Stewart making it a hit. And so I listened to the original version, which is it's, it's, it's okay. It's nice. It's good. It's a song. But Rod Stewart really does bring a lot more energy and charisma to it. [Nick] You can imagine. [Laura ] So I appreciate that even though, you know, I wouldn't like to listen to a whole playlist of lots of gravelly voices. [Nick] Yeah. Well, and there's a reason that same thing that Rod Stewart, I like certain songs he did and probably more of his bigger hits. Cause those are the ones I just knew instantly, but he wasn't my go-to, you know, um, and I've liked several other artists of his generation of the genre. And you're right. I just think that's that gravelly voice. I don't necessarily go to also, I didn't, this is totally on the surface, but his look, sometimes I just didn't really care for his look. And whatever, you know, take it as it is. I'm not, you know, it just wasn't something I gravitate towards. [Laura ] So, So you don't want his money and don't think he's sexy. [Nick] No, I mean, you know what? I will say this. If he was singing that song, I might in that moment, cause that song is the bomb. But outside of that, absolutely not. [Laura ] All right. Well, let's go on to our next song then. So the next two are both by female artists and what happened, where these come up in the book is at the end of the show, uh, of the main character, whose name is Clara. Her show is on right before someone who's named Rad and Rad kind of, he's kind of the antagonist. He's, um, very serious about his job and he is always kind of acting superior and condescending to Clara. And so she plays Gloria Estefan and then after that, Mariah Carey and he comes in and he sort of tuts or saying that, you know, you shouldn't play two women back to back because they blend into each other. [Nick] Oh. [Laura ] And that was actually a sort of a rule at the time, you know, in broadcast school, um, they told us that, you know, so they were, they were artists and then there were women artists who were kind of like spice, you know, and in the same way they were kind of, there were DJs who were men and then there were the female DJs who were sidekicks or whether, or they had their own shift, but they were the, you know, the variety to the mainly male sound. And, um, when I was thinking about doing this with you, um, we were, I think you were in my, um, improv class in college. I think we were, yeah, together. And I remember this. Um, I remember the instructor saying, um, that if you put together a comedy group that you should have no more than one or two women, because, and this is a quote, women are not funny. And I remember that because I always wanted to write a book of like short, humorous pieces with the title, women are not funny. Um, but that was really conventional. It's not, I don't think that's the way people think about it now. I don't think anyone would say you can't play two women together. [Nick] Yeah. I would, I would say this-- not out loud. They wouldn't say it. [Laura] Right. [Nick] Unfortunately.I will agree with you that it's not thought of as much as considered, but I do believe it's still a problem. Um, and the truth is talking about that class, the reason we did, remember we did the commercials together just to, that was amazing. That was one of my favorite things in the world ever to this day. [Laura ] So for the, for the listeners, it was, um, it was a sketch where all of the characters were just speaking in commercial, you know, it was a family who were, who were just having a normal day, but everything would be spoken as if it was a commercial for the cereal that they were, you know, Every, every moment of their life was a commercial. [Nick] It was quite funny. If I recall, you know, I mean, if I must say so myself, I was in it with you. So, but yeah, I am still think that was like one of the highlights of my improv career, so to speak. But yeah, I would say this. I don't remember the teachers saying that, but I know for a fact that James Belushi... [Laura] It probably hit differently when you were in the category of like, Oh, you are, you can never be funny. [Nick] So don't worry about it. It wasn't saying that to me. So I wasn't offended. And the truth is, you know, uh, I mean, I'm still pretty self-centered in my own way, but back then, especially, you know, I mean, you know, if it didn't affect me, if it wasn't about me, sometimes I think I really just went over my head, you know? Um, but I was also just trying to have a good time no matter what I did. I was that kind of guy, you know, just let's have fun. [Laura ] But you know, the, the, the sad thing is that I think that even being in that category, it didn't hit you in the same way, you know, you just said, Oh, okay. You know, you gotta have that balance. And that seemed like you didn't like it, but it seemed like, okay, that's, you know, that's the way it is. [Nick] Yeah. And we're at an institution where we're learning, you know, and he would, we're assuming that he is the one that has that knowledge to give us. And, and that certainly, but that was an opinion, not a factual, you know what I mean? [Laura ] It struck me enough to remember the line and want to, you know, use it as a title for the, but maybe I will someday, you know, and I was, I was in an improv group. [Nick] Um, I was, uh, in Chicago, um, for, I was in actually two improv groups and what in LA, I'm in Chicago. And when I was in Chicago, I was around 30 and we did not have a girl in the troop for the first probably year I was in it because the guy that, that created it and directed it didn't think girls were funny. And so I found oddly enough, I played all the female roles where the time came about and I did them well, it turns out. [Laura] So, it was a kind of Monty Python thing. [Nick] Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, cause you, you know, if you're doing a scene, you know, you do, you're creating these scenes, right? You can't just, you can't say, well, there's no women around, you know, every scene when women are gone, you know, it's a post-apocalyptic improv group. No, unless we've got two girls, but they were used as often. Cause we, we were based on merit and I think they deserve to be up, but they weren't get, that a lot of times they were just a token women. And so I don't think that's changed as much as we would like it to, to be honest with you, you know, but I haven't really done professional improv in 10 years. So hopefully it's changed. [Laura ] Well, I think that, um, the, the radio rule that you can't play, you know, women back to back has probably lightened up a bit, but that really was, uh, you know, we had it where I first worked, the DJ still controlled the flow of the music. It wasn't just programmed for you. Um, you had a clock hour that had different categories. So you'd play, you know, the A's were the currents, the B's were the last five years or so. C's were a little older than that. And the D's were the oldies. And so it told you what kind of music to play. You had cards. And so you would try to get the flow of the show, you know, based on the songs that you could play. So it was kind of like there was a rule that you don't play Pepsi and Coke commercials back to back, you know, or two car commercials. So you wouldn't do two female artists back to back. [Nick] Well, and I will say, I know we haven't discussed what the songs are. The only thing I would say about the reason why you wouldn't want these two women together is because those two songs are both on the, um, I don't want to say slower side, but they're definitely more inspirational. And so, you know, they're two inspirational type songs and they kind of, to me, have that same rhythm vibe. That's, you know, they both grow throughout and they're very similar songs. And so I would think that'd be the only, like, if I was a DJ, I mean, I want them playing back to back just for that reason, that, that, they would seem very, very similar. And I want to, I think I want to keep it, you know, maybe have it grow or study that. And it's like, yeah, guess what I'm doing. I'm going to wave with my hands. [Laura ] We keep gesturing. [Nick] Yes. [Laura ] So Gloria Estefan coming out of the dark, um, before I, you know, get into the background and the story behind it. Um, just your thoughts on the sound of it. [Nick] Well, um, you'll, you'll probably cover some of this, but the thing I remember is for her, it was all, that was a brand new sound, a brand new Viper. And I don't think she ever did that again. I think that was the only song that was done like as an inspiration is, is an inspirational song, but I'm saying it was, it was inspirational and it had, you know, it kind of had that moment where it starts real low key. It's beautiful, but it's more low key. And then it hits that coming out of, and it's just boom and explosion. Right. And so, um, for me, that was not the Gloria Estefan I knew, you know, I do the conga, and even though she had the slow song, she had the words get in the way and she had all the breakup songs and God knows she got me through some things, but I'm saying, you know, um, that was a song that for me, that was a multiple listen song to like, because it, it was one of those songs that it's not a catchy song, no, in my opinion. [Laura] Yeah. But it's very, yeah, it's very rousing. It's very... [Nick] Inspirational completely. Yeah. Yeah. It just builds and builds. And so, you know, it's not a club banger, right? So when I was, when I was 90, I remember I was in the nineties, I mean in my twenties, you know, for me, I was more about that, you know, go to the clubs saying, you know, or you dance the night away. And so this is a song that I thought I had to be a certain mood to listen to. Now, if it came on, it's, Oh, you know, Oh, that's awesome. I get to hear it again. But back then it was a song that I would play when I was feeling either melancholy or I was feeling like I needed to something to kind of boost my mentality, you know, my mental wellbeing long before we had mental health, you know? [Laura] Yeah. [Nick] So that's how I would do it. [Laura ] You'll come out on the other side of this and what I like about it, which I'm not sure how much I appreciated it at the time, but I like that it's a we song and not an I song. [Nick] Yes. [Laura ] Because a lot of those songs of like, you know, empowerment and getting through things are like, I did it. I'm, you know, I think of like Whitney Houston at this time. The greatest love of all is the love of yourself. And this is about getting through it together and having support and appreciating the people who helped you through something. And I appreciate that about the song. [Nick] I would agree. And I hadn't really thought about that aspect of it, but because at the first part of the song, it's not about we, that very first little part, I don't, she says a lot of we, but then she gets right. Then it becomes the, we, I mean, it was always the, we, it just wasn't really expressed, you know, through the lyrics, but then you're right when it becomes the, we, and she's thankful that they were there for her, you know, whether it's just one person or a group or what have you. And, and she talks about how they helped her make it through. Right. And, and so that's one of the things that I did like about it too. I just never really thought about why I liked it that way, you know, what made it kind of special that way. [Laura ] So this was the first single that she released after she was in a very serious accident and she was asleep in her tour bus and she woke up disoriented. She couldn't feel her legs. She was in a lot of pain and she had broken her back and she was afraid that she, you know, wouldn't be able to walk. Two vertebrae were broken. She went through four hours of surgery, bone grafts, titanium rods put in. And it was a very painful recovery and rehabilitation. And there are two people who were really instrumental in this song and in her life. Um, one was her husband who was one of the co-writers of the song. He was of course always with her through this whole process. And she said, my husband had been in one of the helicopters traveling from one hospital to the other. It was really dark and gray and he was traumatized. And he got this ray of light that hit him in the face and he got the idea for coming out of the dark. And after the accident, it became very clear to me that despite everything, we're all here for each other. And the song took on a more optimistic tone. So the first line of the song is why be afraid if I'm not alone? And so it's about her husband being there. And then also there's the gospel choir in the song and that, that, you know, it builds and builds with this gospel choir. And a lot of artists will bring in a gospel choir, you know, to create that kind of feeling. But it turns out that, um, that it was a Miami minister and R&B singer, Betty, Betty Wright, who helped Gloria Estefan start singing again because, you know, she was, it was painful for her to breathe deeply. And, um, so Wright helped her get her singing voice back. Um, and was one of her closest friends and helpers at that time. And so she did the arrangements for the gospel choir on the single. Um, and she had had a hit herself in 1971 with a song called Clean Up Woman, which was a number six hit. Um, but I guess to me realizing those personal connections to the minister and the gospel choir just, uh, elevates the song for me. [Nick] I would agree. And, and I will say the, the accident, what she went through, that was something I knew before the song came out. I knew that song, um, was promoted as, you know, her, um, kind of getting back to what she does and, you know, but, but on the next, on the next level, but I also knew it was a song based off of what she came through, because I remember watching, cause I, I love, I still love Gloria Estefan, but that's it. Um, and so, you know, and I know when that accident happened, it was shocking. And I don't remember what was, you know, I'm, this is me saying what I remember it to be where she was told she might never walk again. And that, you know, and so that's gotta be scary in itself and then to come through all that and, and come out in a, with that positive viewpoint, um, to me, it was just amazing, you know, and, and, and it's, to me, that's why I love humanity and why I believe in people. Cause I feel that we are all fundamentally good people that kind of go astray from time to time. Uh, but that's just, this song is a reminder of that's the best of human nature. You know, the best of taking that situation and getting through it because you have not, not just cause you have loved ones, but with the help of loved ones, uh, cause you can do it on your own too, if you have to, you know, you just gotta be in that right mindset. But so that to me is amazing. And I know like her husband, I don't, are they still married? [Laura ] You know, um, I don't know, but it was, um, the, the song was written with Emilio Estefan, who's her husband and, um, John Secada who I think, I think he had hits after this. I think he was primarily like part of Gloria Estefan's songwriting staple. And then he went out on his own after this, I think. [Nick] Yeah. He has one hit. I can't remember the name of it right now, but I remember he had, Oh, um, duh, duh, duh, duh... [Laura] Just another day without you. [Nick] Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. That's the one for me. You know, I, I love this song for all the right reasons, because it really was a breakthrough for her, you know, yes, in her personal life, but in musically, she hadn't done anything like this before. And like I said, to my knowledge, she hasn't done a lot like it after a few songs here and there, but not on the same scale, you know, and not maybe so personal, at least not seemingly. And whenever an artist, any type of venue, you know, whether it's, you know, music, painting, whatever, when they're able to reveal a part of themselves and just be open, it's, you know, to me, that just makes it even that more special. When you feel like you're connecting with them somehow, because you can appreciate how it's presented. You know? Um, I, I have great admiration for artists that can be vulnerable and, um, cause I mean, that's easy. And I think that was her most vulnerable moment. And I think she took a chance on that song. [Laura ] I think she must've worried too, if she would be able to come back and if people would, you know, and the song was number one and did get to number one on the billboard. [Nick] Right. [Laura ] Let me see. I got my little notes. Yeah. It did get to number one, um, both billboard and the adult contemporary charts. [Nick] And I think such a, I think that's the amazing part too, because it was such a departure from what she normally presented and for her to come back and then have it go number one, um, both, you know, two times, two different places. I mean, talk about on her end. I mean, what a relief and also what a validation, you know, how, what, how validating was that to her that she just came to the biggest thing in her life probably. [Laura ] And she was probably still, uh, you know, this is a, she, well, it was about a little short of a year out from the accident. So she was probably still recovering at the time that she was doing this. [Nick] Probably. Yeah. [Laura ] Yeah. Cause that's a pretty serious recovery. [Nick] Yeah, it is. I mean, to be told you never walk again. She has a dancing years later as I've seen the videos. So, you know, she's not about the team, maybe not doing the flips and the stuff, but she's, you know, she was moving and, and, uh, I, yeah, that's, um, that's quite a thing to overcome and then to excel and also give inspiration to others. That's, that's, um, that's probably why I love her so much, you know? [Laura ] So I'm hearing maybe an A from you on this side. [Nick] Yeah, I would say an A for sure. Yeah. And the funny thing is, is if we'd been a different Gloria Estefan song, depending on what it was, it may not have been an a, because as much as I love her, there's still some of those songs that were catchy and huge were not necessarily her best work for me to my mind. So yeah, definitely an A. [Laura ] I think, yeah, I would give it an A too, especially after reading the whole story behind it. Gloria Estefan, I think out of all of the, the adult contemporary staple women, she was probably my favorite, you know, with your Celine's and your Mariah's and all that. [Nick] Yeah. I, um, you know, I, I never thought about that group cause I was, I just love all of them so much. They all brought something. But the truth is, I think I would agree with you that she was probably my favorite. One of my favorites, not my favorite. What up there, like top three. And of all them probably the most underrated within society, not appreciated as much as she could have been. [Laura ] Like, you know, Whitney Houston or Celine Dion or something. [Nick] Or even Mariah. Right. I mean, you know, all of them were applauded constantly and were their music. Cause I was actually talking about this with a family member the other day. Sometimes some songs are hits just because of who sings them, not because they're good songs. Right. Yeah. And I don't like that. I'm like, no, I mean, it's like, you know, they bother me because there's other songs that should be hits because people don't know, you know, and I get it. But I think it's weird that we can propel a song to number one. It's not that good just because so-and-so sang. It's the next song by. [Laura ] Artist X and yeah, they have their fan base. So they'll all go out and buy it. Sound unheard, you know. [Nick] And currently Taylor, and I like Taylor Swift is not me. I'm not actually like Taylor Swift a lot. And I think she writes amazing music. But currently, I would say she went she's kind of one that falls in that category. [Laura] Beyoncé. [Nick] Yeah, I hate it. And I don't know if this is just an opinion, but I feel like I've heard some critics say, I don't know how that song made number one. Oh, I do. Taylor Swift sang. Yeah. [Laura ] So well, back to back women. Let's move on to the final song, Mariah Carey, Vision of Love from 1990. [Nick] Her first release single. [Laura ] Her first single. That is correct. [Nick] You want me to sing the whole song right now? I know it. I think word for word. [Laura ] So it sounds like you have a lot to say about this one. Well, first of all, I want to say this was not the one you had never heard before. [Nick] No. Yeah, no, no, no. This one I've. Oh, my gosh. It was I think it was summer of 90. It came out. [Laura ] Yeah, yeah. [Nick] Yeah. And so and she came on the scene, right? She had that voice that she just sang. So she had a five octave range going on. And and she didn't. She became eventually sometimes she overused that five. And just obviously my opinion. Sometimes I feel like, oh, you know, she's whistling or she's, you know, again, to me, if it's not necessary for the song, don't do it. If you're doing it to show off, I'm kind of like, well, you know, we've heard it. But that was the first time I'd heard any anyone at that point. I heard anything by her. And it's not a song that I thought I would have loved. But, you know, it starts out with that. It's just like the low notes and, you know, of the music. And then she's just, you know, that we have and she's doing like an awesome boom. She just starts singing. And you're like, holy crap. See, I was good. I didn't swear. Holy, holy crap. You know, I like, who is this person? Who is who's this woman? Where'd she come from? I was living for it. And it was a song with religious undertones, if not directly a religious song, you know, because I just personally I'm I'm spiritual, but I'm not religious. So for me, a lot of religious songs, if they're too overtly religious, I tend to shy away from unless they're just really, really good, you know, because I'm not one to just, you know, give it to God. So, you know, so so for me, sometimes that this kind of stuff that just based on my background, I can shy away from. But this was a song that had a message that was about. A higher power, in my opinion, even though never is directly said, right? It's never like she never says, you know, God gave this to me is all that was given to me. You treated me kind. And so it could be taken either way. It could be she'd be talking about someone not to see a boyfriend, but someone that was good to her in her life. But it really I feel the way the music is and the way it's sung. And the lyrics are very vague about it, that it almost seems ethereal and spiritual. And I mean, Mariah is not always golden with me. But man, was she golden that that song? I mean, that song, I just it was everywhere. It was everywhere, every station all the time. [Laura ] I think this one and emotions, I do remember that it's sort of like Michael Jackson in the moonwalk, where now now that's just a thing that's out there. So you see someone doing the moonwalk. But if you were there and you were watching that Motown 25th and you saw Michael Jackson do the moonwalk, you were like, I didn't know that. Like, what is that? And I think that those where I carry with that whistle register and those runs, melisma is what you call that when you're doing the that's a word that I learned. Yeah. [Nick] And look, you've just imparted on me, thank you. [Laura ] You take the word and you're, you know, going up and down in the syllable rather than completing the word, you're using the word to sing up and down. So I'm sure that people were doing that before. But in a pop song, in a, you know, kind of R&B pop song, it was like that was the kind of thing that made you turn your head and go like, what, what is that? What is she doing there? [Nick] In a way, at the time, it felt like a movement, if that makes sense. Like because it really hadn't been done in pop music, I think, either. I think it was a kind of song that just it just took pop to another level. And because it was so unique, something you wouldn't really hear on the radio, at least on the mainstream stations like that. And the fact that it became such a huge hit, I think for my generation, you know, in 10 years either way, I think it was a phenomenon. [Laura] Yeah. [Nick] And and I was just thinking about it. If generations later, because she's been around for quite some time now, a lot of people will know her mainly from her really pop slash R&B vibes. And she doesn't she doesn't do the runs as much. She does. You know what I mean? And and I think I would I would imagine there are many people that may not even know she has that song, Vision of Love, that are of younger generations, because she really kind of veered off it fairly quickly because she had a couple of the songs that might have been inspirational. She had that one day, one sweet day. And, you know, she had a couple of there, but not like that. Not that was just solely like to me, though. The song had all the music with it. That song really let her vocals shine. And in other music of hers, which I love, you know, I love a lot of her pop music and her, you know, R&B stuff. But it's not the same because there's so much going on in the music. You know, there's so much in the background that and she's still amazing. She's still, you know, Mariah. But it's not it's just not the same. I just keep saying the word by, but it's not the same experience because it's it's it's my bit. Now it's Mariah being sexy. Now it's Mariah being playful. Now, as opposed to Mariah just being, you know what I mean? And so that's kind of how I look at that. [Laura ] Yeah, she's not always my favorite because sometimes I feel like she's not performing the song as much as. So my partner is a ballet dancer, and he'll say to the class, like, you dance music, music, don't dance you. And sometimes I feel like she's using the music to showcase her more than using her instrument to illustrate the story, to to make the song alive. [Nick] And I can see that. [Laura ] So sometimes it seems too showy and too much of those runs and and so on. [Nick] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I there's a couple of artists that come to mind when it and I can't I don't take away the fact that they're amazing singers. Are you I'm not saying that. But but yeah, sometimes it's like less is more, less is more. Remember that? You know, you don't like does it fit the song? Is it is it something that I really kind of need to hear right now? And if it's not, then he's off on that. But but, you know, then again, I'm not filthy rich. And, you know, and set for life. So but she's the other artist I was talking about that. I said, I think she has a stalker song. And it was the song about you'll always be my baby. Remember that song? Mm hmm. Because when you hear the lyrics, she's like, you know, something will go together with strong. I said, you know, you're broken up, but you'll always be my baby. And she's talking about it's not over for her. And I'm like, oh, someone's going to get shot later. [Laura ] I think someone's going to be talking about in the very first episode of the podcast. We were talking about that exact thing with Michael Bolton. And how am I supposed to live without you? [Nick] He's hoping that one day they'll be more than friends. He feels that way with his friends. [Laura] Every breath you take by the police. [Nick] But that was an intended stalker song. [Laura] Yes, that was. [Nick] It's crazy that the audience didn't understand that the audience saw the love song, because I thought it was a great song, but I never thought it was a love song. I always thought it was a stalker song. You know, it's very obvious. It's like a stalker song to me, you know. [Laura ] Maybe Sting is watching Rockwell, who always feels like somebody's watching him. [Nick] Probably. That's probably the whole thing. So, yeah, maybe. Yeah. [Laura ] And Rockwell had an obscene phone caller calling him. So, you know, that's right. Those were his two songs. Somebody's watching him and he had an obscene phone caller. [Nick] So that's funny. I don't know. I mean, I remember the song name, but I don't know if I ever heard that song. I remember because to me, he's a one hit wonder because I only know. [Laura ] I think he was. I think it was a two hit wonder, a major hit and a minor hit. [Nick] Yeah, that's so funny. [Laura ] So anything more to add to Vision of Love? [Nick] Now, I do a little side note, which is very important because the music videos. She was dressed in tight clothes. She has a nice rack. She has. She was very pretty. And so to me, it's less of a risk when you're presenting an image that is look how hot I am singing about a greater power. And that's really what that video does represent. You know what I mean? It's very much focusing on how beautiful she is. Well, while being thankful, she's a thankful, beautiful woman. You know, so so it's less risky in that. [Laura ] It's not about I mean, that's a combination that tends to work in in pop. [Nick] Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, unfortunately, in a lot of a lot of our, you know, society, there's just that double standard of, you know, women can be in, you know, these tight clothes and with these rocking bodies. And if a man has a nice body, if he's wearing a speedo and something, a girl can wear a bathing suit in a video and everyone's fine. He's walking around a speedo. People like, why? Why does he have to do that? You know, I mean, and it's just that to me, this day and age is just mind blowing that we still think that way, that we just don't let people represent who they are and whatever they want to wear. You know what I mean? Even in videos. But but it is true. She you know, she was marketed that way on purpose. And thank God, you know, not that it wouldn't have worked, but good for her. It did work. [Laura ] She was attractive and she was wearing, I think, a plaid kind of shorts and a plaid kind of shirt. So she wasn't sort of rolling around on the top of a car or that kind. [Nick] And she would later. [Laura ] Yeah. Yeah. No. But in this one, she was she wasn't she wasn't doing the, you know, the wardrobe malfunction kind of... [Nick] At some point in the video, I'm 99% sure she wasn't just a tank top. I think because it was a tank top under the shirt and apparently got hot during the video, so she took it off the PC. But, you know, and I think it was a jeans and jeans. She would have been jean shorts or jeans. I haven't watched the video a long time, but I watched it so many times. I know at some point, you know, cleavage were focal points within the song of her singing. You know what I mean? Clearly, the camera's placed in a way that you could see her face, but you could see the cleavage. And, you know, you probably remember I'm not a boob man. [Laura ] Well, I wonder how much that was, how much she since this was her debut, how much she was in charge of her destiny in terms of like presenting herself. [Nick] You know, I'll be honest with you. I am sure not at all in charge. I am sure they were like, we know what we're doing for you. Do you want, you know, because that's the truth. When you when any any behind the music things I hear or anything I knew from people in L.A., many people that stuck to their guns about, well, I'm not going to do this. It's not my image, are the ones that don't get an opportunity unless they can somehow get themselves out there. You know, if they can do it on their own. But if they're telling the powers that be, they're not going to do it. The powers that be say, well, then goodbye to your deal. Well, we'll find someone who's easier to work with. Yeah. There's a lot of pretty people that you may sing amazing and you may be nice looking, but we can find someone just as equally nice looking that we can make sound good. And even back then, Milli Vanilli, right? You know, I mean, so, you know, we can even just pretend you're singing. Well, you're not. I mean, so it's one of those things where I don't think she really had a say. I mean, they may have. They may have humor and been like, what do you think of this? [Laura ] Also, I think that she must not object to presenting herself in a certain a certain way, because she hasn't stopped presenting herself that way. [Nick] No. And she has gotten more, you know, maybe not anymore. Well, but I've seen stuff she wears even currently, even though she's more of a like a slinky kind of dress. [Laura ] And yeah, yeah. [Nick] Glam it up. Yeah. And if she's doing it just for image, that's OK, too. But she's doing it because she likes how she looks. Hopefully that's why she's doing it mostly. Then great. I don't I don't shame people. You know, although I kind of shamed her there. I'm not shaming someone for being beautiful or, you know, for being, you know, for. [Laura ] Well, that's like I said, I would you feel differently about it if it's like, you know, I enjoy dressing up and I enjoy showing off. And or if it's like the record company is putting me here and I don't feel comfortable. [Nick] Yeah. And I don't you know, if you know anything about Pink, you know, her first album was something she did not want to do at all. It was R&B. She was at R&B. They presenters R&B. And ironically, it's one of my favorite albums in the world. That was it. She she'll never sing those songs. And it's like, I won't go to Pink concert. No. But the thing is, is, you know, it wasn't who she was when she was allowed to do who she was. She became more successful. I just feel like, you know, where I did stick with it, did stick with the sexy. And I can name up many songs and many a video where she's wearing less. You know, I remember she's up for I give my all. And she's like wearing a like it looks like a night slip kind of dress on a boat. And it's beautiful and it's artsy. And it's showcasing, you know, all of her wares. And it's amazing. But at the same time. Yeah, it's kind of what the image was produced for. And it's kind of stuck with. So I think she was somewhat OK with it, I would agree. [Laura ] I would think I think of someone I think of like Madonna as someone who is very self-directed in her image and to present herself in a sexual way. But you definitely had the sense that that was her presenting herself that way. [Nick] Absolutely. Madonna absolutely engineered her image. And Lady Gaga, I think I think she was one of the people lucky enough out the gate was able to kind of present who she was, how she was artistic. [Laura] You know, a meat dress isn't that sexy. [Nick] Well, not to you and me, but I don't know. I mean, you know, I feel like it was a weird choice. Right. For me. But at the same time, it was she was making a statement like Madonna made her statements in her way. She was making a statement. Could you tell me what it was, though? I don't know what it was. [Laura] Look at me? [Nick] Yeah, I guess there. Yeah, I am. And Lady Gaga was one of the same thing. She out the gate. I felt like I knew who she kind of was as an artist. And so I appreciate that. But Mariah is the OG in that way. I feel like other artists, very few artists come out swinging like that. [Laura ] But you're probably right. Clara probably shouldn't have played the Gloria Estefan's coming out of the dark back to back with Vision of Love. [Nick] They do sort of blend. Not just because they're women. Not just because they're both women. They both both songs are, you know, I mean, they're not. It's not they're not even that similar in like they are, but they're not. You know, it's the inspirational aspect that really drives home the similarities. But but yeah, they both do start slow. They both do build. And they both, you know, are are something that we really hadn't heard before from that artist. So there are a lot of similarities. [Laura] You got to throw an Elton John in between or something. [Nick] Something or even like an ACDC or they were they weren't so big. [Laura ] That would have blown the ears off of the audience at this contemporary station. [Nick] But yeah, you might lose some blue hairs on that one. Well, great I'm not a DJ. [Laura ] So is this an A also in your book? [Nick] This is an A plus, honestly. [Laura ] OK, A plus. Well, yeah, this is this is our first A plus. This is great. [Nick] Yeah, I really think it was. It was a mind blowing moment in pop culture music. [Laura ] Well, that's a great place to wrap up, I think. [Nick] Yeah. Yeah, I'm good with that. [Laura] Well, thank you very much. This was this was a lot of fun. This is great. [Nick] It really was. And I appreciate you thinking of me and including me in this. And I hope your audience learns some stuff today, like I've learned from you as well. So you look great. It's good to see you. [Laura ] Yeah, you too. You too. And thank you for listening. If you liked what you heard, please consider subscribing. So you never miss an episode. Liking and subscribing tells the impersonal computers out there that real people do listen and like this, and that makes it easier for other people to find it. Next week, Justin and Jane are back and we'll talk about yachts from Christopher Cross to Duran Duran, and we'll try to decide what was the best song of the 1970s. [Justin (future guest)] Stab it with their steely knives, but they just can't kill the beast. What? Well, what is this creature that they're going to try to eat that they can't seem to kill? [Jane] Right. [Justin] Wouldn't a knife take care of it? Apparently not. So why do I even want to try to eat that thing? I want no part of it if I can't kill it with a knife. But here we are. And what? You can't get me wine? What? Come on. [Laura ] See you then.