Saturn's Favorite Music Podcast Episode 1: Hey Hey It's Adult Contemporary! [Doc] Back in the 90s, I'd watch kids, you know, just walking around. They'd have, you know, their big radios and stuff, and they'd all be trying to sing along to the song. And it would just be this foolish lip-flapping. And then the Even Flow. Butterflies. That's all they could do. [Laura] Welcome to the Saturn's Favorite Music Podcast. It's a very strange name, so I'll explain. Saturn's Favorite Music is the name of a book. It's set in a small town of Saturn, Michigan, which is where there's a small radio station in this book. We'll be following along all of the music references, doing a deep dive into all the songs that the fictional DJs played and listened to in 1992 to 1993. And my guest today is Doc Shea. How you doing? [Doc] Doing very well. Thank you very much for having me. [Laura] I'm going to start by asking a little bit about yourself and what kind of music your background is and what you like to listen to and your experience with music. [Doc] I have spent decades in entertainment. Quite a few years developing private party entertainment companies across the country. That was one facet. So with that, I've, you know, I've had to become versed in everything from classical to Lithuanian goat dancing. [Laura] Lithuanian goat dancing. [Doc] I, there's only 12 goat dancers left, but you know, they're a feisty bunch. But no, I've been involved in music my entire life from a very early age. And it's just a part of every day. I don't think people realize how much influence music has on their daily life, even just when they're at the office, they're grocery shopping. It still has an effect from not only what we've listened to previously, but what unfortunately is playing on the overhead Muzak system. [Laura] You know, I was actually the voice of Muzak at one point. If you called up the Muzak offices, thank you for calling Muzatronic Services. That was me. [Doc] Well, then I shouldn't have said those nasty things. [Laura] Well, I don't think that Muzak today is quite what Muzak was back in the day. It seems like Muzak today is the kind of music that we'll be talking about some of it. It's the music that was playing on the radio in the late 80s and early 90s. [Doc] Yes, very true. It's elevated quite a bit. [Laura] What kind of music if you were just putting something on for yourself, like what's your favorite kind of stuff to listen to? [Doc] Oh, God. I'm all over the board. You know, it could be something as inane as The Monkees to Peter Gabriel's Secret World Live, Frank Turner is one I've come across in probably the past seven or eight years, who's a particular favorite. Groups like Good Old War, you know, quite a few. If you look at my Spotify playlist, you'll probably need to take medication afterwards. [Laura] Well, I love that kind of playlist. I love a playlist where you're just trying to find all different kinds of music. And that's what my playlists look like, really. [Doc] Doctor, he went from Mozart to Thomas the Tank Engine. I can't handle it. It's pretty sad. [Laura] Well, today we're going to be talking about some of the songs that appeared in the first chapter of the book, Saturn's Favorite Music. What's happening in the book is that the character of Clara, who is the main character in the book, she is driving for her interview at the radio station in Saturn. And on her radio is playing, actually in her cassette deck, because it's 1992, she's playing Pearl Jam and Even Flow before she switches over to the radio station. So let's talk about Even Flow. This was it would have been a really new song at the time that Clara was listening to it because it came out in March 30th, 1992. So what are your what is your hot take on Even Flow by Pearl Jam? [Doc] Well, I remember when 10 hit the album it was from and Pearl Jam being one of the progenitors of the grunge sound that the country became aware of. We were coming out of the 80s and everyone was burned out on digital prefabricated music. The second British invasion, you know, new wave had just as easy as it was to dance to had pretty much taken a lot of the soul and humanity out of music. From there, it was just a counter movement that grunge rose up using distorted guitar similar, you know, evocative of heavy metal. But the lyrics were usually more introspective, deeper than metal was. You know, you contrast Even Flow against girls, girls, girls. Yeah, I think I've made my point. [Laura] It's sort of anti hairband. [Doc] It was fighting back against the corporate pop culture of music at that time. When you had somebody like Eddie Vedder, whose vocals just made everyone think of Jim Morrison, combined with those lyrics where, you know, you kept listening to it and you kept finding more meaning in them really just created a whole movement. You know, it's without Pearl Jam, Nirvana, you know, Soundgarden, those early starting grunge groups, it would have erased an entire decade's worth of music, which is music that you're focusing on in your book. [Laura] Well, this Even Flow, it's interesting because the lyrics to Even Flow, I never understood them at the time. You know, I never, I got his intensity, certainly. He's a very intense guy and looks like it would be exhausting doing the kind of concert that they did. But to me, it was just, you know, I had no idea what this song was saying. [Doc] Well, I mean, they were known for their live shows being just electrifying. I remember reading it at one point that the guitarist, McReady, said that his riff on that song was his trying to be Stevie Ray Vaughan. So, you know, when you take that into mind, you're thinking the fact that there's, when you listen to it again, you can hear the blues influence in the back, you know, that it was structured around. So the grunge sound was layered on this blues beginning and just creates a whole, a whole different sound. But yeah, the lyrics are left not completely focused so that the listener can draw different meanings out of it. [Laura] Yeah, I think when I think back to what I heard on the radio, you know, the opening, I didn't really get any of those lyrics. And then in the chorus, I kind of got even flow and something about butterflies. So I didn't really, I had a feeling of the song, but I didn't have a sense of what that particular song was about. Unlike something like Jeremy, you know, where he's very clear in his enunciation and what he's saying. [Doc] Yeah, it was that growl of his that made it difficult to understand. So, yeah, you picked out key words and it would be funny because back in the 90s, I'd watch kids, you know, just walking around. They'd have, you know, their big radios and stuff and they'd all be trying to sing along to the song. And it would just be this foolish lip flapping and even flow, butterflies, that's all they could do. [Laura] Yeah. [Doc] We had the bubblegum era in the 60s. And out of that, we popped into hippie psychedelia, you know, as a counter to it. And the same thing happens with every cycle of music that we go through, where we come back to, oh, it's got to be all dancey and happy pop. And then people have enough and go, you know what? We actually have emotions. Let's talk about them. [Laura] I think that the audience, though, you know, we think of them as there's this Pearl Jam audience and there's this, like, say, Monkees audience. You mentioned, you know, the Monkees. I'm a Monkees fan. [Doc] Spread carefully. [Laura] Yeah, I think that the same people, you know, can listen to Daydream Believer and listen to Pearl Jam's Even Flow. And we all have different sides of our personality. It's not very true. A dark person who's always dark and then a poppy person. [Doc] Yeah, and it's funny because I've been friends with Mickey Dolenz for about almost 30 years, and I have talked to him more than once over the fact that he wanted to try and Mike Nesmith, apparently seriously as well, wanted to interject deeper meaning music into the Monkees. And they were shot down hard every time. And when they would try and do something to be a little more experimental following along the lines of the Beatles, it would get destroyed because unlike the Beatles introduction to the public, which was strictly through music, the Monkees had a visual component as well. And that visual component had already fixated in people's minds of the silly bubblegum monkey antics. And anytime they tried to do anything serious, shot down. [Laura] I'm a big Monkees fan. And my big Mickey Dolenz story is that I waited in line. He did some tours of the auto shows with the Monkeemobile. And so I waited in line to get up there to get my picture signed. And I think he was pretty tired by then. So his signature came out, Wing Dog. But I was asking him about what was the song? Oh, Going Down. It's kind of got like a scat jazz kind of thing, which is very un-Monkees really. [Doc] That was his James Brown tribute. [Laura] Yeah. Yeah. So I was asking him what the lyrics were to that because I couldn't catch him. I said, I've been down three. I've been down nine. And he was like, nine lives, a cat. I just stared blankly, you know, actually in Pennsylvania, we have a shared history entertaining at Dorney Park in Pennsylvania. And I went to see the Monkees while we were. And it was just a stripped down kind of three guys and instruments kind of show. [Doc] I went the night after you did. [Laura] Okay. Yeah. [Doc] And that's when I ended up meeting the Monkees because I snuck backstage. [Laura] Okay. That sounds like something that you would do. [Doc] I was standing by the stairwell and a young boy came up to me with a rolled up drawing. He had done in Cran of the Monkees. And I was in a suit at the time. And so you must have thought I worked there. And he said, will you give this to them? And I just hit me and I went, sure. So I walked right down the stairs that went to the dressing rooms and the corridors. And I walked down and walked over to their dressing room, knocked on the door. And Mickey answers the door and he goes, yeah, can I help you? I said, yeah, this is for you. And I hand him the picture and he opens it up and sees this about five-year-old child's drawing and looks at it, looks at me and goes, you're really good. And then he pauses for a moment and he said, you're not with the hall, are you? I said, no. He said, well, I know you're not with the tour. So who are you? And it just spiraled from there because, you know, I was cracking jokes. They were laughing. They invited me to a VIP party after. And the security guard is saying, well, his name's not on the list. Yeah. And Mickey goes, yeah, it is. It's right there. Peter Tork. And Peter, who's sitting right behind Mickey, goes, God, you did this to me last time. And, you know, that was it. I've been friends with them since. [Laura] I should have come that night, I guess. [Doc] Yes. Yes, you should have. [Laura] I came the wrong night. Actually, while we're on the monkeys, we'll get back to the you. We'll get back to our regularly scheduled programming in a bit. But while we're on the monkeys, actually, there's in the book, Saturn's favorite music. One of the plot points that happens is that there's not exactly a corporate takeover. It's not clear channel, but there's a the station gets sold to a new owner who's more corporate and he's more controlling. And the character's name is Kirshner, which was kind of a nod to Don Kirshner, who produced the monkeys, the early monkeys, and wanted to keep them controlled. So it goes back to them wanting to flex creatively and the people in the radio station kind of wanting to be authentic and creative. And this new owner wanting to have everything scripted. [Doc] My favorite antique with with Mickey was I was appearing at a convention. I just finished a film and it was Motor City Comic Con. You know, I was out there. We had T-shirts with our characters, pictures on them and such. And they had just screened the movie. People were coming out and we were supposed to do panels and such. And I'm walking by the table and there are two girls who were buying a T-shirt with my face on it, which is a first for me. And they're young girls and they're giggling and they will you sign this? And I'm like, OK. And so as I go to sign it, a golf cart pulls up and it's Erica Strada from Chips. And he looks at me with that big toothy smile and says, this is how it starts. The next thing you know, you're an action figure and I'm the lunchbox. And I'm laughing. And so he asks me if I'm going to the VIP party after. And I said, no, I can't. I'm actually running entertainment, hosting karaoke at a bar not that far away. And he said, really, do you have Spanish music? I said, I am Telemundo. And so as I'm saying that to him, I hear this big, thick voice of did I hear karaoke? I love karaoke. And it's Lou Ferrigno, the Hulk. Wow. And so Eric is going, yeah, we're going to go do karaoke tonight. And that's when Mickey comes up and goes, oh, wait a minute. No, no, no, no. You guys aren't going without me. And their handlers are going crazy. No, you can't. You have to go to the VIP party. You have to know. Well, no, no, we're grown men. Thank you. And so I walk into my gig that night with Ponch, the Hulk and Mickey. That's like the first line of a joke. Exactly. Exactly. [Laura] It was Mickey Dolenz and it was my walk into a bar. [Doc] I walked in with my childhood. [Laura] Well, we probably should pivot back to Evenflow. So, yeah, it wasn't it wasn't a billboard hit. It wasn't even in the Hot 100. But I think for a song like that, it's not doesn't matter. It's interesting to me when you watch some of these videos that were huge on MTV, right? And you think because you saw them so much or the music, you heard it so much. You just assume that that was a huge billboard hit. But some of the time it wasn't, you know, songs like this. A lot of the time it's not. [Doc] Well, they even said that off of that entire album, Evenflow was the one that just didn't quite get there. [Laura] Yeah, I heard that they did like 50 or 100 takes and they were never happy with it. [Doc] No, it just didn't quite gel, which is why it has this more raw feeling to it than some of the other songs on the album. But they even went back when they went to release A Greatest Hits, they tried to re-record it and remaster it. And it just didn't have the same feel. I know the drummer had said he was just having a hard time with it. The guitarist, again, I believe McReady, had said he just couldn't feel the groove of it. And so there are points where you can hear a little bit of drag, which honestly makes it a bit more jazzy in that regard, because instead of hitting precisely on the beat, they're on the backbeat. And that's a jazz nuance. So where they were looking for more of rock structure, they came off with this touch of jazz in it that wasn't quite sitting for them. [Laura] Well, I think that something that's just imperfect is kind of refreshing in an age of AI music and things that are pitch correction and all of that. [Doc] Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. One of the worst things to happen to music was auto-tune. And now with AI. But no, I've always liked Pearl Jam's rawness when it comes to their lyrics and delving into ideas and subjects that you don't normally hear. The same can be said for Nirvana, although they did it in a much more, I'm going to slap you in the face with this idea, as opposed to Pearl Jam, which actually made you think about it. Nirvana said, oh, you don't have to think about it. I'm going to spell it out for you right now. [Laura] Yeah, this is Clara, the character Clara's choice. It's what she's listening to. And she pops out of the cassette player because she's getting closer to the area of the station. And the first thing that she hears from her future employer is not a current song. It's Steely Dan's Hague from 1977. And I think part of this is that the novel is fairly autobiographical, although Clara's not me, the situation isn't me, but it draws a lot on my life. And a lot of those 70s songs I really associate with my working in radio in the early 90s because our station played a lot of it. And that was kind of a hole in my musical background. You know, I loved the 60s growing up. I loved that kind of psychedelic, the hippies, the sunshine 60s. I liked all of that. And then, of course, I was an 80s kid, so I knew all the 80s, the MTV and anything that was huge in the 70s. But a lot of that sort of classic rock, light rock 70s, you know, it went right by me until I worked in radio. So what is your take on Peg? [Doc] Well, I do have to say that thanks to Disco, I have always said the best thing to come out of the 70s was the 80s. But Peg is actually, it seems a very simplistic song on the surface in terms of lyrically. There's not expansive lyrics for it. But the structure of the song itself is really interesting because of the combination of influences in there. You're hearing jazz, you're hearing rock, you're hearing even their Polynesian layers from how they made guitars sound at certain aspects in the song. It's a song that apparently was very difficult to record. And without Peg, we wouldn't have had the sound we've come to be familiar with from Michael McDonald, who provided backup vocals on it. [Laura] Yeah, it's his double track voice on the chorus there. [Doc] The harmonies on that were completely, completely different than anything that was going on in rock music. Because they were very tight, they were interwoven at points, they were atonal to create this kind of dissonance that accented certain beats in the song. And he even said that it was a difficult recording session. He had worked with them before, so he knew what to expect. But it was grueling for him. But because of the tone, they would have him re-record because they wanted him to shape a word tonally different than what you would normally sing it as. So out of that came his signature sound from when he went on to do his solo work after the Doobie Brothers. But it's really interesting when you think about the fact that Steely Dan was just two guys, and they brought in a series of session players. They rotated through eight or nine guys before they found the guy who could do the guitar solo for Peg. It's just this revolving circus of incredibly talented musicians. [Laura] I mean, it's a way to do it, right? You just bring in, you have your idea, you're not stuck with your core group. I want the best one to do this particular riff. I have this sort of jazzy idea, and we're going to bring someone who's good at that. [Doc] And that's exactly how they formulated their orchestration to find the best players to bring out these songs. They also wrote many songs that they'd come across as a player. They really liked his style, so they wanted to involve him in something. So they wrote something to showcase his ability. The bass line in Peg is something that came about, I guess. The bass player they got was thinking, after listening to the song, that he'd use the bass playing technique slapping. It would accentuate it. Slapping was just coming into popularity at that point. And they said, no, no, we don't want slapping. We want you to play it normally with your fingers and just have it sound normal. And he knew it just wasn't going to work. So in the studio, he set himself up behind a partition that's at about three feet high, and he was in the low chair, and he just did it his way with the slap. And they didn't even realize it until it was already in post-production. So you've just got all of these different influences coming in on the song. And then the story itself, the lyrics, are ambiguous. [Laura] Yeah, yeah. It's not spelling out exactly. I mean, it'll come back to you. Something will come back to Peg. [Doc] Well, the lyrics on that, Steely Dan even had said that it was supposed to be from the point of view of a young man who is in love with this girl who dumps him for a shot at stardom. And this is in the 50s, apparently. And he is at one of her photo shoots, seeing this photo shoot going on. And that's what these lyrics are about. That, yeah, you know, you smile for him. It's all going to come back for you, though. [Laura] I love the line, done up in blueprint blue. That's a good line. [Doc] Yes. And that was, again, relating to the pinup shots that they talk about. [Laura] Posing for, you know, they're taking pictures of her and, you know, like she's sort of going to be on the big poster, you know, somewhere. [Doc] Yeah. And, you know, other people have tried to tie it to, you know, that it's about a girl getting swept into the adult film industry and, you know, other things. And the guys from Steely Dan were like, no, no, it was the 50s. [Laura] It's just the guy who feels left behind while she's gone off and he's grumbling at her. [Doc] Yeah, well, they try and attach significance to the name Peg, which is why. And he said, no, we just needed a name that worked with the rhythm of the song, a one syllable name. So we went for Peg, just like Phil Collins used Susudio. It was just a placeholder until he found a name that worked. And then it just he never did. [Laura] Nobody people don't know that Susudio is supposed to be a woman's name in that song. [Doc] Right. And he just couldn't think of a name that worked with the the architecture of the song at that time. So he was just using that as a sound to fill the beats where he wanted the accent points on the name. And it just worked better than anything he could come up with. It was the same with Peg. You know, in terms of single syllable female names, there's not a lot. And Ann just wouldn't cover it. It's an open vowel sound at the end. It doesn't have that finality impact that Peg does. [Laura] I read a quote about the the the harmony on the the Peg chorus, and it was Gary Katz, producer. He said, he sounds like a thousand camels in the courtyard. Not really sure what that means, but I like the quote. [Doc] Well, that was the thing. Michael McDonald always had this thickness to his voice, even when he was singing extremely high notes, which generally thins out the voice. It always sounded like he was trying to swallow pudding. It's just this thickness to it. But when you listen to that in contrast to the lead vocal, it's a complete contrast in sound. And it actually works to make the lead vocal stand out more because it's not a thick sound that blends into Michael McDonald. [Laura] Yeah, it's almost it's it's interesting because it's like his voice has a warmth and a depth to it. And yet the Peg is also kind of a harsh sound because of those close harmonies. It's kind of warm and harsh at the same time. [Doc] And that's where some of the dissonance comes in by the closeness of the harmony tracks on that name. So it really makes it stand out more. And it's all to the beat of this bouncy what they call yacht rock now. [Laura] Yeah, yacht rock. I don't think that Steely Dan liked being referred to that way. [Doc] No, they didn't. And neither do I. [Laura] But it's I think a lot of those musical expressions, they're kind of mocking. I mean, if you think of all of the ways that they label music, like shoegaze or emo, emo or stomp, clap, hey, you know, it's kind of mocking and it ends up being I think yacht rock is kind of a affectionate mocking term. [Doc] I'm not emo. Thick black mascara just shows you my inner pain. Yes. [Laura] Well, this is it's sort of an example of what we were talking about with, you know, Nirvana, Pearl Jam, like being this kind of stripped down, like more aggressive and reaction to very produced things. This is. [Laura] Very much on the other end of the scale where it's very produced, but it's not produced in a kind of like a big hair way, you know, it's, it's very well thought out. [Doc] Yeah, I mean, when you think about it I mean grunge had the same counter effect that punk did in the 70s. When that was surfacing and grunge, honestly, is kind of what if emo and punk had a child would be, you know, but then to the side of grunge you have all of this amazing music that's still carrying forth like Steely Dan released this song, years and years before, but it's still been popular ever since. [Laura] And it's not a song where you, you know, you think of it as the 70s because it came out in the 70s, but it's not like, you know, disco or something or even like Duran Duran or something where you say oh that's this time, you know this music tells me what time it is, what era. [Doc] Yes, exactly. That's a very good, very good point. It does have more of a timeless quality to it because it's orchestration isn't tied to any single genre, and every genre goes through eras, such as you mentioned, you know, you hear a rock song from the 50s you know it's from the 50s, from the 60s from the 70s. Because of this, and it's such a mashing of different genres and styles, you can't attribute it to any specific point. [Laura] This one was a big hit, it was remained at number three on the Billboard chart for seven weeks in 1977, and had a chart run of 19 weeks so it was a big hit. [Doc] You know, and that was an era that was, it was being dominated by groups like Kiss, the Bee Gees, you know, stark contrasts to each other, and yet Steely Dan still right there, right in the middle. Yeah. [Laura] So, what is your overall is Steely Dan on one of your playlists is it. [Doc] Yes. That album is an incredible album in its own right, the variety of sounds utilized in that album are just incredible when you when you analyze it and break it down. It's, it's an incredible album. [Laura] Out of these four that would definitely rank my number two, and now we're getting into the adult contemporary soundscape of 1992. The next song that comes up on the radio is Michael Bolton's. How am I supposed to live without you released in October 1989. And it's actually the biggest chart hit of the four. It reached number one in 1990, and it was the first number one hit of the 1990s. [Doc] Yes, and it did reach number one on the Billboard charts I believe his hair ranked number four. [Laura] His hair was, you know, he was what was interesting when I was reading, because I didn't give a lot of thought to Michael Bolton to be honest. Back in the day, he was something that we had to play and he was there. But when I started to read about him that he was sort of, he wanted to be this hard rocker and he sort of wanted to be like a Lou Graham kind of character. So the big hair is, is sort of his hair band hair, but he's doing very, I don't want to use the term middle of the road but he's doing very light love song kind of music, you know your adult contemporary type of music with this kind of gravelly voice and the big hair, and it's, it's unusual. [Doc] If you ever get to listen to some of the bootlegs from before that album, you know, you can definitely tell he wants to be more rock. But because of the success and impact of that first single, he was pigeonholed from that point on the music industry wouldn't let him do more than that. You know, you have examples of that with like Sugar Ray, they were much more of a hard rock sound, mixed with punk, before they had their big hit their big hit right, but then from then on, they were forced to do that same sound over and over again. And that's what the music industry forces you to do. Oh, we had success with this, you're going to make us more money. [Laura] It's probably a combination to I mean it's Michael Bolton was working for a long time trying to find success. And when you find some, you know, you want to have more. [Doc] Well, you know, and when you look at the lyrics of that song, let me ask you what do you think that song is depicting lyrically, it's a breakup song. Okay, interesting. [Laura] He's, he's heard that his girlfriend or has found someone new. The reason I'm sort of tripping over pronouns is I'm kind of thinking of the Laura Branigan version, which first so she's in that case, her partner is found someone new. [Doc] But you're missing the key to the whole song. When he says that he's been wishing for so long that we could be more than friends. [Laura] Oh, that's true. You're right. [Doc] They're not a couple. This is the ultimate simp anthem. He was friend zoned before this song began, and he is upset that she's found someone else, you know, not even him but she's found a boyfriend or man or a relationship of any sort that isn't him. [Laura] That makes sense when he's saying like, tell me, tell me about the plans you're making isn't really what you say to someone who's because who's your girlfriend, and you found out that she's cheating on you and you go home and say, So tell me what you're going to do, you know, he is the epitome of every girl who goes, Oh, this, you know, Tom here he is my bestie. [Doc] He is my bestie he I mean we are ride or die. And Tom is completely friend zoned, and she thinks that, yep, they're best friends and meanwhile he's going, I'm just waiting for my chance, like you know, so it's gives a completely different slant on the song, but isn't the chorus a little bit over the top for someone who you were not actually involved with outside your head. Yes, and that's what gives it a very creepy edge to it, because he is completely and madly in love with this girl, but is just her friend, and he probably was sitting at home drawing pictures of her and, you know, has pictures of them together on his wall and, you know, in his head he plays out these romantic fantasies. But she's like, Hey, yeah, he's the guy I go shopping with, but he doesn't know how he's gonna live without her. Right. And, you know, this is just high school in a nutshell. [Laura] Well, if it was someone who was high school age singing about that that would make sense, but Right, but it isn't it's a 40 right when he It's a grown man who, you know, the next step of evolution from this song is the police, I'll be watching you. [Doc] Right. You know, so, and everyone, the whole country was swept up. [Laura] Oh, it's a beautiful love song and I'm sitting here going, it's a little creepy, you know, Another song speaking of like love people call up and request like play this for my darling is I will always love you. Whitney. [Doc] Yes. [Laura] They will, you know, call up and say, Please play I will always love you for my sweetheart. Did you want to say it's a breakup song. [Doc] Yes. Yes. When I was doing private parties and I was doing a lot of weddings and such and there are people would always ask for songs like that. And, you know, I'd say yeah it's it's it's a breakup song, you know, Hey, I've got it. After that, why don't we play. You've lost that loving feeling. And then we could go from there to Tammy why nets div or CE, how about that. Can you play I will survive. You realize we're at a wedding right. And, you know, it's because people don't necessarily listen to lyrics, just focus on lyrics they listen to the song as a whole. And so they tend to miss those, let's call them plot points. [Laura] Well, especially, especially when it's a song that you're not. If you love the song, you're going to get to know all of the words you're going to really dig into it. It's just kind of there. [Doc] Yeah, you're going to dig into it. But you're going to frame it in the idea you already have formulated about the song. It's a love song. So these lyrics are about love. No, no, they're not. They're, they're about the equivalent of saying, hey, that face print on your bedroom window just means I like you. [Laura] Yeah, I think music definitely trumps the lyrics in terms of what mood it's giving you another song that falls into that category is nights on Broadway, the Bee Gees. Yeah, I followed you but you did not want me to or something like that. So he's hanging out with Michael Bolton outside this poor woman's house. [Doc] Right. And you know that they're sitting around afterwards going that which is a horrible woman. She had she did nothing to you. She had no clue. But, you know, that gives a whole different slant on this song when you think about it. And I even just, you know, in getting ready for this, I watched the video because I couldn't remember the music video to this song. And the music video paints it as a relationship breakup. Yeah, they're there. They're together. They kiss. She's throwing cups, which oddly enough, she throws a china cup and it doesn't break. She throws it at the wall and then the next shot is him picking it up off the floor. OK, but it's which just shows the whole relationship was imaginary. Yeah, because the cup didn't break. It's inception. [Laura] So so this is a very deep song that I was not appreciating its depth is what you. [Doc] Well, you know, that's the thing is you also have to remember MTV was still running hot. So, you know, people saw that music video and they attached the message of the video of a relationship breaking up to the lyrics, you know, and to the song as a whole. They didn't even think about the fact that, you know, I've been dreaming for years about us being more than friends. [Laura] Oh, really? And he can't live without her. But can she live without him? See, this is the this is the scary second chapter. [Doc] I've been through two marriages, which proves, yes, they can. So it also proves I make bad choices. No. So musically, the song is excellent. His voice is very deep and emotional. And the tonality of his voice gives it a rawness to it, especially as he's hitting those higher runs. But, you know, you can make a beautiful Beethoven-esque sonata. And if you've attached lyrics to it, it could still be about how to make tuna fish casserole. Sure. So, you know, it doesn't matter how beautiful it sounds. You have to look at what it's actually meaning. [Laura] So what is your what is your take on Michael Bolton? Like, are you a Michael Bolton fan or a Michael Bolton detractor or a Michael Bolton meh? [Doc] I recognize his talent. I feel bad that he was so overplayed and forced to rehash the same types of music because of popularity that it basically canceled his career. He's extremely talented. Is it something I'm going to go out of my way to to play? No. But then again, if it comes on the radio, I'm not going to throw a shoe at it either. [Laura] It's interesting how some people manage to be overplayed and still persist. Like I'm thinking about Phil Collins, who was all over the state. You know, you get so sick of Phil Collins. But I mean, people, young people, if they know artists from the 80s, they'll know Phil Collins. [Doc] Right. But at the same point, his music also didn't all sound identical. And when you have songs like In the Air Tonight to Take Me Home to Dance into the Lights, you know, and plus what he was doing with Genesis on top of it, which had its own sound. So, you know, he had more versatility in what he was doing, although you can easily identify any Phil Collins song from that time because of the sound of the drums. [Laura] Yeah. [Doc] You know, that's a signature for him. Just the same as you can identify any Billy Joel song from the piano, Bruce Hornsby from his piano. You know, all of these artists of that sort. [Laura] Like the attribute to his guitar. [Doc] Right. Yeah, absolutely. You know, so it's something that he didn't have the musicality to fall back on, Michael Bolton, because he wasn't the songwriter for everything. A lot of those pieces were being given to him and they were, you know, just just shut up and sing this song, fuzzy boy. [Laura] He wrote this one, though. He wrote this one. Yes, he wrote he wrote shares. I found someone also. [Doc] Yes. Which shows that if he had been allowed to do more of what he actually wanted, he could have been much more diverse. But, you know, romantic ballads, romantic ballads. The group Chicago is a good example of that because of the fact that they were so much more rock based, you know, Saturday in the Park, 10 to 4, you know, excellent library. Then Peter Cetera takes over as the lead singer. They score a big hit with a power ballad. And that was Chicago from then on. [Laura] Yeah, it is. There is a very distinct difference in early Chicago and then that sort of AC adult contemporary sound. I mean, at that time in the early 90s, I mean, that was the hugest music format. It got it got over saturated. I I was looking back because I was living in it, but I didn't you know, I didn't know the bigger trend. I was just in it. But a lot of those stations there right at this period, it just got over saturated with AC stations and a lot of them started to turn to country. And I think that probably the record labels were saying, well, if you want to really sell a lot of records, you know, you want to make some AC songs. [Doc] Well, that was the thing. It's, you know, again, coming out of the 80s and this soulless electronic pop music, you know, power ballads were again what we were talking about earlier with emotion being put back into music. And yeah, it it became quite a movement. And sadly, so because again, it's it's an overplayed, you know, the record industry constantly does that. One thing becomes popular. So everything has to ascribe to that. Until it's beaten to death, we've wrenched every last nickel out of it, then we'll promote something else. [Laura] I feel like the cliches, you know, now or in the past, like five years, like when you go through the songs that are they're pushing right now, you know, that sort of autotune thing where the voice gets manipulated and it doesn't jump like Cher Believe was kind of an early example of that. Yeah, I, I hear that. [Doc] And I just go like, Okay, no, if you're doing it, and you're original, and you're the only one, but if everybody's doing it, then you just go like, Oh, that's such a cliche, you know, well, auto tune allowed music companies to promote people into stardom that they could package visually, overtly, sexually, or whatnot, who couldn't necessarily sing. Hence, people like Britney Spears, who, not a bad singer, but not a an incredible singer, but she was something they could package. And so we'll do autotune where we need and make it sound amazing. You know, so many artists now are, are packaged that way without being able to carry a note. You know, I always love catching those videos where they've, you know, recorded somebody on a sound check before a concert or whatnot, where they haven't started the backing track. And you go, Oh, my God, that's that's Herman Munster. So, you know, it's, it's a false industry at this point. That's why I'm still very much drawn to singer songwriters, people like Frank Turner started off as a punk musician, went into rock, and he his songs tell stories. [Laura] I'm into Frank Turner, too. Yeah. [Doc] So, yep. [Laura] So Michael Bolton, your take is talented person, poor material, if I'm understanding you correctly, like wrong material for him. [Doc] I wouldn't say wrong material for him because he was extremely talented at it. It was limited scope. It didn't allow him to grow any. [Laura] So too much of the same material. [Doc] Right, right. And as that style of music became overplayed, so did his career then. [Laura] So let's move on to the last song that Clara hears on her ride into her new station. She's kind of a goth. She is listening to Primal Scream. This is what she did not Primal Scream Pearl Jam, which is what she likes. And we're now moving on to Kenny G and Songbird. [Doc] I'm sorry. [Laura] Kenny G and Songbird. [Doc] No, I heard you. I'm just very sorry. [Laura] This is from 1986. It got to number three in the AC chart, number four in Billboard, the last instrumental hit before it was the year before it was the theme from Miami Vice. This is definitely not foreground music. [Doc] No. Also, this was the time where you had artists like Bobby McFerrin becoming popular. More jazz influence was leeching into mainstream music. But it still caught attention at first because he wasn't using a tenor saxophone, which is what people were accustomed to. When you hear that type of music, you're not listening for a clarinet, you're expecting to hear saxophone. But he came out with a clarinet, which hadn't been popular in music since Benny Goodman. So he also had these incredibly fast, dynamic runs, which was a signature move in every song. [Laura] And his long, he held, he could hold, he'd hold these notes for a long time with this circular breathing, he'd have the long, just the long note. [Doc] Yes, he has the Guinness Book of World Record for it over 45 minutes on one note. [Laura] Yes. And then they got rid of that because it's dangerous and they don't want anyone else to try it. [Doc] Right. But musically, he's playing in the jazz playground, but he doesn't really have as many toys as the other musicians do. He got a lot of flack from renowned musicians who said that his knowledge of scales, diatonic structure, and more were very limited. But again, it was coming out during that same era of Michael Bolton. Romantic music. Yeah, smooth jazz. That was a song you could put on in the background while you tried to serve your date this terrible spaghetti dinner you made. But, you know, you're trying to say, hey, I'm a guy who can cook. You know, you burn the garlic bread. Oh, I'm sorry. That's actually celery. You know, but you can put it on while you were trying to set that mood. [Laura] Well, see, I get the, I get the, there's a place for that kind of soft background music. But what kind of baffles me is it being this huge hit, because, you know, that means that everybody had to get excited about it at the same moment and go out and buy this record. There's lots of smooth jazz or, you know, new age or whatever kind of music to relax or to set a mood. And most of them, you know, they don't chart. They don't get played on heavy rotation on a station. People buy them, they like them. And I'm not really sure why Kenny G had that moment and blew up like that. [Doc] Well, smooth jazz was just coming into being at that time. And jazz in and of itself has a completely different musical structure. So he was applying jazz sounds to that romantic ballad structure that follows along with, as we said, Michael Bolton. So it was something that people hadn't heard before. Not since Chuck Mangione in the 70s. And he charted really high as well, you know, with his flugelhorn, which I mean, I'm sorry, but if you want to make sure your kid gets beaten up at the playground every day at school, make him play the flugelhorn. [Laura] Or the accordion. [Doc] Oh, the accordion is even cooler sounding to say than flugelhorn. You just want to say Gesundheit. But, you know, it was that same movement that applying jazz structure over the current musical trend for mainstream music and making it instrumental was something you just didn't hear. So, yeah, it caught attention. And, you know, it created a very solid mood when that song played. The same as you could apply to George Winston, who is an incredible pianist with his album Winter. And those pieces of music just paint this completely evocative image of winter and snow and, you know, all of that. It's the same thing with creating this imagery of romance, even though the song is about his move from Seattle to LA and starting a whole brand new life. So to create romance. Yes. To create. Hey, I'm starting a whole new life. I missed the mark. [Laura] I guess he's sitting on the ocean. I can see it. You know, you're sort of starting a whole new life sitting on the beach or something. [Doc] Well, yeah, that's because, you know, everyone else in his apartment building was yelling at him to stop playing. You're annoying the dog had to go to the beach. [Laura] He's he's Kenny G is I don't think he gets a lot of, you know, a lot of love. He's one of those ones that people love to put down. [Doc] Well, you know, he was the Nickelback of his era. But I think, honestly, Songbird showed off the peak of his talent. And musically, as a composition, it's a solid piece. But every other song after that sounded just the same. The same musical runs, you know, all over the place. Fast and not even following a coherent melody line. It just note fills just kind of showed that there's not a lot of room for him to go anywhere. [Laura] Yeah, it's it's, you know, they had different titles, but I couldn't tell you, like, which one was which from the title, you know, they might as well have numbered them like the next Kenny G song. [Doc] Right. [Laura] Exactly. I've, you know, like I said, it's, you know, it's, I see the place for it. I see why people would buy it and put it on. But the ubiquity of it in early 90s radio is still kind of baffling to me. [Doc] Yes. To hear that on top 40 radio stations was absolutely stunning to, you know, go from songs like Spoonman to Songbird. That, you know, you had to make sure you weren't driving at the you had to make sure you weren't driving at the time because you just suddenly swerve off the road and hit a tree or fall asleep. Yeah. You know, in my case, it would be to hit a tree. So I'd make sure I didn't hear the song again. But I was never a fan of. I grew up on jazz and swing and such, you know, listening to Miles Davis, John Coltrane, you know, all of all of them. And this type of jazz just leeches all of the soul out of it. But the rest of the orchestration around it was soft and melodic with this twinkly, almost dreamlike orchestration behind it. So that's what carried it over his actual melody. Because if you just listen to that melody line on its own, no other orchestration around it, it's, I don't want to say pedestrian, but it's repetitive. And it's only punctuated with those mindless runs. You know, look how fast I can hit the buttons, you know, the valves on my, my clarinet. I'm sorry, but the, the sax. [Doc] player for Tina Turner, in my opinion, was a better musician than Kenny G. And he was only famous because, you know, he was this big muscle guy who played without a shirt and had the long Michael Bolton hair. [Laura] So Kenny G is probably, I'm taking from this that it's not at the top of one of your playlists. [Doc] Oh my God, I listen to him every day. You know, it's an instant insomnia cure. I must sleep in under 20 seconds. Okay. No, I, even when I was entertaining at private parties and such, people would say things like, oh, we were thinking Kenny G for dinner music. No, you're going to have to find someone else. It is a firm rule of mine. No, Kenny G, we are a Kenny free zone. That's it. [Laura] So this would not be the top of the list of the four songs. We've got, we've got two thumbs up. We've got a Michael Bolton, like a C. [Doc] Um, yeah, I'd say a B minus because it is a good song. Don't get me wrong. It is a good song. It just, I would have liked to have seen him be able to do more afterwards. [Laura] And I don't, you know, I'm not, I'm not as up on his career to know if maybe he did more stuff that just didn't, didn't hit that I am not aware of. [Doc] Soon as he cut the hair career done, he's just like Samson. Yeah, pretty much, pretty much. I mean, you know, from what I've heard, he, uh, he goes every month to get his chest hair, uh, get a, a perm there, but you know, because he had similar hair really. [Laura] So maybe, yeah. [Doc] If on these, if we're using the school scale of a to F, uh, I would probably grade Kenny G at, um, Q. [Laura] Q. Okay. How about, um, Pearl Jam and Peg, since we've given the B minus and a Q. [Doc] Even Flo, uh, even though I wasn't big into grunge, I would rank that as an A because that was a seminal piece of music for that movement, for that genre. Peg, I put at a, uh, an A minus just because of the underlying complex, that complexity in that song. If you really sit and listen to it and, and you listen to all of the individual lines, you realize how complex that song is. Uh, Michael Bolton, again, musically good song, vocally incredibly talented, lyrically off the mark. You know, that's the type of song that, you know, you want to listen to it and then go, uh, I should call HR. I would put that at a, uh, probably a B or a B minus just because of that being a very impactful song for its time as well. [Laura] And then we got our Q on Kenny G. [Doc] Yeah. Yeah. Well, to quote the Martians from Sesame Street in regards to Kenny G. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. [Laura] Favorite Monkees song? [Doc] I think my favorite Monkees song, that is hard to say. It depends on the mood. Going Down is a fantastic song. Shades of Grey, lyrically, is an incredible song. I'm a big fan of the Mike Nesmith songs. [Laura] I think I was going to say Door into Summer. [Doc] Door into Summer, excellent song. Excellent song. I was listening to that yesterday. He's credited as being the godfather of Southern rock. [Laura] And he was instrumental in, um, in MTV, I understand. [Doc] Yes. Yes. It was because of him that there was MTV. He, uh, is credited with creating the, at that time, modern music video. [Laura] Is that like Joanne? Did he do that for Joanne or? [Doc] No, it was for an album he had that was coming out at the time and he did a video package for it that went along with it. So it had all of the songs, you know, on video as well. [Laura] You can see that from, you know, TV and the Monkees and going into videos. [Doc] Right. [Laura] And kind of the next logical step. [Doc] Mm hmm. And it was because of that and he won, um, uh, I can't remember if he won a Grammy or an Oscar over it, uh, over the package that he had done. And, uh, it was because of that modern music video started formulating the way they were. Instead of just, okay, we're going to show the Beatles on that, you know, Ed Sullivan stage and we're just going to focus on them. So, you know, it was a whole different thing. Uh, and you know, it's funny because you trace that back to the Monkees trying to emulate what the Beatles did in their movies. [Laura] Yeah. [Doc] No, the, the Monkees I think are a highly underrated group and I am sad that as influential as they were, that they'll never make it into the rock and roll hall of fame. Uh, and that's because, you know, they were the pre fab four. Sure. Where now there's nobody cares about that anymore. [Laura] Yeah, but they weren't, they weren't a, um, you know, like a stock Aiken Waterman, like created boy band cut. I mean, they were brought together for a TV show, but. [Doc] Peter was teaching Mickey how to play drums in between takes on the show while filming. Yeah. [Laura] So I guess in that sense, yeah, they did have that kind of boy band beginning, but they were performers, you know, who could hold up a TV show. [Doc] Yeah. I would, I would say you could almost consider them the original boy band. [Laura] Yeah. [Doc] Because they were cast in those roles. [Laura] You got the cute one and you got the, you know, the serious one. [Doc] And the innocent one and the funny one. [Laura] Yes. [Doc] It checked all the boxes. [Laura] So we got a bonus this episode because we had our four songs and we had a deep discussion of the monkeys, which was not even on the schedule. [Doc] That's right. And catch the 14 hour outtake monkey discussion coming out on audio next week, where we break down the evocative use of the word the. [Laura] Well, this, well, thank you very much for talking music with me. This was great. [Doc] Oh, I had a blast. [Laura] Yeah, this was lots of fun. [Doc] And for those of you who don't know that much about your wonderful host, she used to do improv comedy. [Laura] I did improv comedy. Actually, I was at a book signing last night and I was talking about the very first time, the very first book signing I ever did, because my bio had this line about how I was formerly an improv comic and a mime. And they really capitalized on that. And so they sent out to the bookstore this bio and they decided that I was a comedian, which I am not. And this was my very first book and my very first book signing. And I thought I was going to go and sit down at a table. I show up, there's a podium and all these people sitting like an audience. And I said, oh, I didn't know I was speaking. They said, oh, yeah, just do like 10 minutes of your best material and, you know, be off. And I don't have 10 minutes of best material. [Doc] I still teach improv and I do classes on improv. Yes, exactly. I remember getting hired for a corporate fundraiser and I was just supposed to emcee the night. And I was supposed to come out, introduce the various entertainers, run the auction, etc. And I show up and they go, OK, so after you do your first 20 minutes, then do about 10 minutes in between each of the acts and 10 minutes of what? Well, comedy. [Laura] Your stand up, of course. [Doc] And I'm sitting here just thinking I am I am going to jail. I'm going to jail for killing my agent after this. And I had to just improvise the entire night. So it was a solo improv for about one hour total. Hmm. Oh, I'm lucky they were all just here. [Laura] You're still here. So you survived it. [Doc] Well, what was the funniest part about it was that it's a Japanese company and a lot of the people who are there. Straight from Japan, don't speak English. So there was a translator and I don't know if you've ever encountered that, but. When you're trying to do comedy and you have to stop every few lines to let the Japanese interpreter catch up. And then it doesn't translate. Timing. Oh, that was that was loads of fun. I'm lucky they were drunk because they were laughing anyway. [Laura] Well, this was lots of fun, so thank you. [Doc] Oh, thank you. I had an absolute wonderful time and I can't wait to read the book. And what's the name of the book again? [Laura] It's called Saturn's Favorite Music. And when is it available? It's available now. Where? At Fine Internets near you. [Doc] Oh, fantastic. See, I just figured you had to get that plugged in. [Laura] So thank you. [Doc] Not a problem. [Laura] Thanks for listening to the Saturn's Favorite Music podcast. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe and share. We're brand new, so it helps to let people know that we're here. Tune in next time when my best friend Jenny Hunter and I will discuss happy sounding songs about dysfunctional relationships, songs the Beatles gave away, and whether Barry Manilow was misunderstood. [Jenny (future guest)] I was laughing because I always watch YouTube with the subtitles on and it was like happy or cheerful music like whenever he was just playing the piano, which I thought was really ironic because the song is not cheerful. [Laura] See you then.